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Member (Idle past 2523 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Help me understand Intelligent Design | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
quote: No actually, technically you're wrong, in the case of Dr.Eden, that much is clear. Read it carefully and identify specific outcome infered somewhere in that quote:
quote: From my vantage point, he is saying that, as Para pointed out, of all the unspecified results we could've had, the probability distribution of what "should've happened" by random, causes him to conclude that the combined forces of natural selection regulating an accumulative alléatoire mutation process, "shouldn't", based on the properties of organisms or the sequence of DNA, have produced "any kind of viable form other then nonsense." If you wanna argue that the present outcome IS non-sense. We'll take it from there. But that would contradict the vary principle of NS's role and intrisic mechanism. Therefore I doubt you will. and nor in the case of Dr.Grassé, nor in the case of Dr.Crick is specified outcome in question in those quotes. Or even inferred as far as I can tell. In the case of Dr.Crick, he argues the improbability based on the nature of the DNA itself, just like Dr.Eden. Not specified outcomes.
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
quote: No you do want me to repeat myself, but that's ok. I will.
quote: I say ID, you say random...the rest of this discussion deals with why we disagree on that very specific point remember?
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
quote: No you need to deal with the fact that you're asking the wrong question about ID because you are placing it in the wrong spot in the equation. This is where we disagree. Refer to my previous post.
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
quote: I'm not sure I understand, pls provide further elaboration
quote: Unfortunately I haven't read a single ID book yet. Only books and material against ID. Most of my knowledge on ID comes from them actually. So I'd be curious to find out as well. I will though, because I'm about to start reading Dembski & cie soon.
quote: I never thought of it that way. It may very well be, since ID is still under debate.
quote: I don't see ID as a mechanism, but rather what the mechanism points to. For Nug and friends, the mechanism points toward "randomness". I don't ask them to explain the mechanism of "randomness", there is no such thing. We infer randomness, and that, based on an EHDI as Fisher says. This is where me and everyone else disagree. But they unfairely ask me for a mechanism when i never argued that there is one in that sense.
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
quote: There he goes with his nit picking, avoiding the central issue. I never said you did read it either btw. what is your point here?
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
quote: Hummm...wasn't it Ned who said: "In this context "random" is a description of the outcome of the detailed mechanisms." According to what I read, you didn't call "randomness" a "mechanism" in this case, but "the description of it's outcome". This sounds an aweful lot like what I said, which was, that "randomness" isn't the mechanism, but rather, to quote myself, "what the mechanism points to". Two ways of saying the same thing, so does it mean we are both wrong in our understanding of randomness then? Maybe you will explain? If not, I rest my case.
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
case rested
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
quote: You're debating skills amaze me. But I don't think free insults will win any arguements here. Statistically, I've received more insults then valid points unfortunately.
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
I meant everybody else...
just about
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
quote: It may not be obvious on both sides actually. Because I had to debate this subject on alot of different levels with alot of different people at the same time. All the while, as the late rapper Tupac Shakur would put it, it was "Me against the world" on this thread. So I can understand that the debate became confusing to follow. Because at each turn, I was answering a number of different people none stop, each with their own different and specific questions and objections. In another context, perhaps it would have been easier to get certain points accross more clearly without having to rewind a 20 page long thread before posting with a full scope of the debate in question. Nonetheless, since I think we are clear on what we disagree on, though we may not agree, I personally enjoyed discussing this topic with everyone of you. I've learned of many interesting ways to look at the subject in the process. Looking forward to bumping into each one of you in other topics here on EvC. thank you
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ausar_maat Member (Idle past 5530 days) Posts: 136 From: Toronto Joined: |
Thank you nwr,
I will consider this option in the future. But all in all, I greatly appreciated this opportunity to exchange, dispite the short comings of it being done in a public thread. I enjoy my stay so far here at EvC and will stick around for more interesting discussions no doubt. And I truly respect and appreciate the fact that you show empathy for the position I found my self in. Thank you for that as well. cheers This message has been edited by ausar_maat, 10-20-2005 05:21 PM
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