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Author Topic:   Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence? Part II
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 122 of 171 (253270)
10-20-2005 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-20-2005 1:21 AM


Re: Time for Evidence
Please don't start that game.
The original OP:
Do you think God is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence -- or do you think that God is determined to allow ample proof or evidence of his existence?
Not do you believe, not do you know, but do you think.
Stop stalling and present the evidence.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-20-2005 1:21 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 2:15 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 124 of 171 (253595)
10-21-2005 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-21-2005 2:15 AM


Re: Time for Evidence
Anyplace you want.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 2:15 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 3:08 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 126 of 171 (253599)
10-21-2005 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-21-2005 3:08 AM


Re: Time for Evidence
Sounds great! Go for it!

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 3:08 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 3:15 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 130 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-22-2005 2:32 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 131 of 171 (253963)
10-22-2005 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-22-2005 2:32 AM


Anthropological/Biological
Nicely written, but very long. What you seem to have provided for me is evidence of a Creator.
quote:
It seems more plausible to those who are not biased toward purely materialistc causalities that the rhythms found in the cells of all life are exactly what they were designed to be by God -- a 'sign' that God was active in the creation of all life all along just as the Scriptures claimed from the beginning.
Since we have already assumed the existence of God for this thread, I guess I assumed that we assumed he was the creator of all things. Did I assume to much with my assumptions? Do we need to add that to the list of assumptions?
What you have shown me is that God WAS active, but what has he done TODAY?
Does God do anything physically today to maintain biological rhythms or do they maintain themselves?
quote:
The physical evidence of the signs given by the Lord usually almost always includes aspects of having a clearly definitive message pronounced as a warning, omen, or prodigy in conjunction with it. ...On the more exceptional occasions, a miracle (or miraculous sign) was given to otherwise establish the proof of his presence and to demonstrate the seriousness of his intentions.
Exactly! To establish the proof of his presence in real time. That's what you should be showing me. Proof of God's presence today.
Creation is not evidence that God is present NOW. The great flood is not evidence that God is present NOW. Christ's resurrection is not evidence that God is present NOW. He could be off visiting another galaxy monitoring the progress of a new project.
What evidence does God provide that can be scientifically substantiated to show that he is present today?

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-22-2005 2:32 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-22-2005 12:40 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 133 of 171 (254038)
10-22-2005 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-22-2005 12:40 PM


Re: Anthropological/Biological
quote:
Since there is apparently no natural rhythm found within nature capable of maintaining this cellular weekly rhythm found within nearly all facets of life, it seems to indicate that whatever has caused it in the first place is still very much active in maintaining it.
Not necessarily.
Even this article you cited elsewhere doesn't intimate outside maintenance of our rhythmic systems. God's Mysterious 7-Day Cycle
Our bodies are carefully designed for self-protection even in matters of time. On the one hand we are an orchestra of rhythms, on the other our bodies demand stability and sameness --an automatic pull to homeostasis (the maintenance of a beneficial equilibrium, a self-regulated norm). Campbell explains: "The two regulatory systems, one imposing sameness in time, the other providing orderly change, are complementary rather than being in conflict. A body function alters in a rhythmic fashion, and homeostasis stabilizes the altered state of that function.
quote:
Having said this, I am coming to the more direct evidence of God's existence in the present tense
Please do. Whatever order you prefer.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-22-2005 12:40 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-23-2005 12:54 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 135 of 171 (254143)
10-23-2005 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-23-2005 12:54 AM


Re: Anthropological/Biological
quote:
It seems to me that if these internal processes were merely self-regulated patterns, then they would probably tend to diversify throughout the various species on earth -- with some species having remarkably different cellular rhythms than others in our present day.
Not self regulated, but self protection as stated in the article. Our bodies are carefully designed for self-protection even in matters of time.
The creator programmed it to be a system created to maintain itself so the creator wouldn't have to. No maintenance.
Seems to support absence instead of presence.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-23-2005 12:54 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by AdminPhat, posted 10-23-2005 8:20 AM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 137 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-23-2005 12:26 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 141 of 171 (254376)
10-24-2005 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-23-2005 12:26 PM


Re: Anthropological/Biological
quote:
Except for the fact that they don't actually know how this works or even exactly why it's happening for that matter.
So all you have given me is an unknown, not a verified presence of God.

"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-23-2005 12:26 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-26-2005 2:15 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 143 of 171 (254865)
10-26-2005 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-26-2005 2:15 AM


Posting Tip
quote:
No. I've demonstrated a scientifically verified pattern throughout all life which quite accurately verifies what the Scriptures apparently were saying all along.
I disagree, but continue.
quote:
Apparently, however, my posts are too long -- so I'm debating on whether I should even continue with this. In truth, it seems impossible for me to validate God's existence to you if I'm limited to sound-bites, buzz-words, and other meaningless dribble.
You aren't limited to soundbites, buzzwords, or meaningless dribble.
Since you like to supply a lot of information, here is a tip that may help you.
Make your point first.
The seven day week may not be an invention of man, but an innate rhythm installed by God. or
Our internal seven day rhythm is evidence of God's presence since it ... (or whatever you felt your overall point was)
When writing for the newspaper they told us to put the important information first. The reasoning is that your story may get cut short due to limited space in the paper.
The same tactic will work well here. Make your point at the beginning then provide the proof. Then restate your conclusion at the end.
Get the readers attention so they will want to read the rest of the post.
In a medium like this one where people pop in to quickly see what is going on, you may lose their interest if the point of your post doesn't present itself quickly.
ABE: Better subtitle
This message has been edited by purpledawn, 10-26-2005 11:01 AM

"I refuse to think of them as chin hairs. I think of them as stray eyebrows." -Janette Barber-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-26-2005 2:15 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Hawkins, posted 10-26-2005 11:10 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 145 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-27-2005 3:02 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 146 of 171 (255032)
10-27-2005 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Hawkins
10-26-2005 11:10 PM


Not His Will
quote:
Basically I dont think its His will to get proved physically.
That is my contention.
God does not allow his existence (presence) to be scientifically substantiated today.
I haven't found that the scriptures really provide a why though.

"I refuse to think of them as chin hairs. I think of them as stray eyebrows." -Janette Barber-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Hawkins, posted 10-26-2005 11:10 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 147 of 171 (255186)
10-27-2005 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-22-2005 2:32 AM


Circaseptan Rhythms
Mr. Ex,
In Message 145 you asked why I disagree. I'm attaching the reply to Message 130 because that's where your info was and it makes it easier for me to refer to it.
quote:
No. I've demonstrated a scientifically verified pattern throughout all life which quite accurately verifies what the Scriptures apparently were saying all along.
You have shown that science has found a seven day rhythm among other rhythms within living things. I don't feel that you have made a true connection between humans using a seven day week and this natural rhythm.
You have shown that "weeks" have varied in length among cultures.
"Weeks" varying in length from three to nineteen days have existed in past cultures.
Did those cultures change the length of their week because of their internal rhythm or because a stronger culture took over?
Did having a longer or shorter week adversely affect their physical health?
The seven day week is associated with Babylonian Astronomy.
The seven-day cycle makes its earliest appearance in Babylonian documents of the 7th century BCE. It is not quite yet the week as we know it, however. In origin, it seems to have been one fourth of the approximate time in a month the moon was visible. In short, it does not include the days around the new moon, and is not therefore a continuous cycle. To picture what this "week" was like, imagine one of our months with four regular weeks, and then a few epagomenal days at the end of the month, which do not belong to any week.
The Jews adjusted what the Babylonians started.
Another difference between the Hebrew and the Babylonian calendar is the treatment of the 7-day cycle. Recall that the Babylonians had a 7-day cycle, but the days around the new moon when it was invisible were not included. In the Jewish scheme, the 7-day intervals between Sabbaths runs independently of the months and years. There are no epagomenal days. The days are numbered 1 to 7. Only the Sabbath, the seventh day, is named, although day 6 is sometimes called ereb shabbat, "the day preceding the Sabbath."
They just started counting and started over after seven.
According to the book by Paul Johnson,"A History of the Jews", the Jews were influenced by Babylonian astronomy.
The concept of the Sabbath, strongly reinforced by what they learned from Babylonian astronomy, became the focus of the Jewish week, and 'Shabbetai' was the most popular new name invented during the Exile.
The Jewish calendar was also reformed during the common era.
In the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE, the Jewish calendar was reformed. The primary purpose of this reform was to regularize the intercalation of months and the length of the months. Using the Metonic cycle of 19 solar years, months are intercalated in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19 of the cycle, exactly the same spacing as in the Babylonian cycle.
I don't see the relationship between the seven day week and our seven day rhythm other than the number seven.
Does the first day of our seven day cycle always start on the first day of the week? If not, then I don't see where one affects the other.

"I refuse to think of them as chin hairs. I think of them as stray eyebrows." -Janette Barber-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-22-2005 2:32 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 148 of 171 (255465)
10-29-2005 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-27-2005 3:02 AM


Bump to Index
Mr. Ex.
I don't think my reply showed up on your topic index.

"When women are depressed they either eat or go shopping. Men invade another country." -Elayne Boosler-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-27-2005 3:02 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 7:09 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 150 of 171 (255532)
10-29-2005 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-29-2005 7:09 PM


Circaseptan Rhythms
I understand the seven day rhythm. I understand that our bodies have highs and lows etc.
How would a shorter or longer social week affect the seven day rhythm and a persons health?
quote:
There are also apparently serious consequences associated with working against one's biological clock, such as accidents, depression, and lack of quality sleep. Blood pressure and allergic reactions differ throughout the day. Heart attacks and strokes are also affected by the biological clock. Timing surgery with the biological clock can prove to be life-saving.
These deal with biological functions.
IMO, the social week does not affect biological functions.

"When women are depressed they either eat or go shopping. Men invade another country." -Elayne Boosler-

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 7:09 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 7:29 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 171 of 171 (277693)
01-10-2006 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by One4Truth
01-09-2006 11:51 PM


Scientific Substantiation
Welcome to EvC One4Truth,
You aren't really addressing the point of the original discussion.
This thread is dealing with whether God allows or doesn't allow his existence to be scientifically substantiated.
The questions in the original OP are:
OP writes:
Do you think God is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence -- or do you think that God is determined to allow ample proof or evidence of his existence?
quote:
How much evidence is there that your great-great-great grandparents existed?
Actually I have a photo of my 3rd great grandfather and I've been to the burial site of my 3rd great grandparents. I also have a paper trail back to my 13th great grandfather. This is just one line of my father's paternal side.
This house of my 10th great grandfather from my father's maternal line still stands in New York.
A couple of houses that one of my 3rd great grandfathers, on my father's maternal side, built are still standing.
I have in my possession the Bible of my 3rd great grandmother, with their family photos in them.
So you see, I have no problem physically substantiating the existence of my 3rd great grandparents. I also know where they are all buried.
quote:
And in 1,000 years, or even 100 years from now, how much evidence will there be that YOU existed!?
Granted as time passes evidence diminishes, but I am not a god. I will not always exist.
Supposedly God is existing, not existed. So the point is, does the living God allow evidence of his current existence to be scientifically substantiated to where belief is not necessary to understand that God currently exists?

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by One4Truth, posted 01-09-2006 11:51 PM One4Truth has not replied

  
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