Christianity Is Broken, but Can Be Fixed

The verse goes: The condition is confess TL. Not walk in the light. How can one whose sins are forgiven and who is cleansed from all unrighteousness be condemned TL. I think you are conflating (Jar thought me that word) a couple of different ideas here TL. Is there a scripture that showsa person in Christ + will be judged by works + will be condemned if those works are not up to scratch? It would help if you could put them up so we can have a look at them

"His definitions of a true believer" But we're not interested in his definition of what a true believer. Who is he to know that? We're interested in what actual true believers do. If the church (which is only made up of true believers) is failing as you claim, it would be useful to know what true believers think you would agree.How does Mr. Barna go about deciding what a true Christian is (your link just shows a bunch of questions about church going etc) - and by extension - how do you back up your claim that the church (the body of true believers) is failing. What is your basis for that claim? Your interpretation of what a believer is? Is your interpretation right? How do we know that?Questions, questions...all is questions. Seems like we could do with a thread:"What is a Christian"...before deciding if they are failing or notThis message has been edited by iano, 18-Nov-2005 08:56 PM

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Mike claimed (first) that the bible is historically inaccurate. Will he be invited to take his claims to the appropriate thread too. Or is the presumption that the Bible-is-inaccurate-until-proved-otherwise, the AdminSchraf stance? If so and with respect, could AdminSchraf, in the appropriate place, inform me as to how this stance was arrived at?

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It looked to this Mod as though your post had only to do with Biblical historical accuracy, in the broadest sense.Mikehager's post still had something to do with the OP, while yours did not.I wonder if you'd be a dear and just invite mike to an appropriate thread if you'd like to discuss the historical accuracy of the Bible. It'd just be better for this thread, don't you think?I promise, if mike continues to persue the topic here instead of following you, I'll have a word.(I am an off-topic offender, so I am trying to improve myslef by spotting it in threads as a moderator.)

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The children of Christians should be noticeably better students, not necessarily in grades, but in attentiveness, obedience, respectfulness, and behavior in and out of class. They should be noticeably hospitable, noted as helpful. As a group, it should be obvious to locals that the church can be counted on as a place for assistance, warmth, hospitality, and excellent advice and counseling for life, even from the untrained members of the church. The church, meaning the community of believers, should be a place where loneliness is banished, where children are well-adjusted, confident, happy, and free. You should be able to trust its members in business, knowing their word is as good as any signed contract.

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They should also be recognizable as family, as close and as responsible for one another as the closest families you know, whether or not they were physically born into the same families, because, after all, they are the household of God.

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Surely the household of God should be recognizable as an awesome family with well-adjusted and admirable members.

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Do you know what you have just described?Something very similar to a typical, individual, family and community in Japan.In Japan, the majority of people are not especially religious at all, and by far the major religions are Buddhism and Shinto, with a large majority of people practicing both.

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The YEC movement is one of willfull ignorance.

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The Defense of Marriage movement is one of bigotry and oppression.

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The Salvation movement is one of exclusion and intolerance.

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The presentation of Christianity as proclaimed by televangelists and pulpit is of hate, despair and destruction.

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What would you call the "Promise Keepers" movement, jar?

Probably needs another thread, but care to nominate a few individuals so we can examine them?
Second question: Why are there so few?

I'd call the Promise Keepers comic relief if it wasn't so serious. At $20.00 a pop it's a money maker for sure. And it is definitely symptomatic of the current bankruptcy of Christianity.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

There a few I've met over the years. Bud (WC Burriss) Young was one good example until he died a few years ago. He was an amazing person, mentor, teacher, friend, advocate and guide. There are probably others out there but they will certainly not be primarily identified as Christians. Very important point. And what this thread is really about.I have some very definite ideas of my own but would rather let TL lead that part of the discussion.

jar I do not think that is the right way at all.The reason is that if all are inspiring it becomes the norm and inspiration fades away.
It is precisely because certain individuals erupt above the norm { Bruce Lee,,John Bachar,John Lennon,Richard Feynman,Wilfred Owen} that we are inspired by their excellence in the fields of endeavour they are in.More than anything is the fact that they are not concerned with the appearances but with substance.It is a measure of the greatness of a person that they perform flawless maneuvers with an economy that belies the immense effort that is moving behind the scenes.Insights seem to apppear without effort,movement appears to be magical and understanding seems to cascade out of them in utter simplicity and clarity.So therefore,it is not the lack of inspiration but the human weakness of need for constant affirmation of a position subject to much division of purpose and filtered through the moral enviroment of different individuals with different outlooks on just what is important in life.I am exhausted from care in phrasing to impress you on how hard I am trying to avoid an Hikotu.

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But I realize now that these people were not in science; they didn’t understand it. They didn’t understand technology; they didn’t understand their time.

What is this Bruce Lee fetish, SL? I mean, apart from a 2 inch punch, what did he have going for him?

But I think you may be misunderstanding my point.The people I speak of would not be concerned with appearance, or even with inspiring you. They would only be doing. I would say that is hardly an objection.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Here we comment every now and then that if a family lives a particularly inspiring life, then everyone will say how wonderful that family is. However, if there's a place where every family lives a particularly inspiring life, then it's the place that will be given credit.The result may be that it's the norm, and that it's not particularly inspiring, but that's what the Faith is supposed to produce. It's supposed to radically affect every person who embraces it.I'm just saying that such a Faith has and does exist. Christianity is not so, but I'm saying that if Christians were to admit it were not so, then begin changes to become like that, that there really is an attainable goal, and that it is experience, not just theory, that says this is an attainable goal.

Good for them. I hope that if this is true, then someone's noticing and America is trying to make some changes to be like them.If Christ's message is true, then his people should be favorably comparable even to them. If they aren't, then it isn't.

I already did to everyone's satisfaction but yours, and you live in an imaginary world where the majority of Christians live up to the things I've been talking about. So, admittedly, I can't establish that your imaginary group of Christians is failing in the way I've described.

This is a copout. Why don't we just say, "A Christian is a person who succeeds at the things we're talking about in this thread"? That would take care of the whole issue.Those who listen to the very message you give on this web site fail at living a Christian life somewhere between 80% and 95% of the time, depending on whose statistics you read.Here's an example:

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"I was reading in the American Horizons magazine, which is the official magazine of a very large, or a major, denomination of the United States which has 11,500 churches throughout the US - in 1991, their first year of what they called “the decade of harvest,” they got 294,000 decisions for Christ. They found that only 14,000 remained in fellowship. That is, they couldn’t account for 279,000 of their decisions for Jesus. And this is normal modern evangelical statistics when it comes to crusades and local churches."

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That's from Ray Comfort's tract on true and false conversion. He's telling the truth. No matter where you get your statistics from, this is typical.Here's Barna's definition of a born againChristian:

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"'Born again Christians' were defined in these surveys as people who said they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today and who also indicated they believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as 'born again' or if they considered themselves to be 'born again.'"

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From http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&Barna....

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Here's some stats to go with that:

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"Among adults who have been married, born again Christians and non-Christians have essentially the same probability of divorce."

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"Among married born again Christians, 35% have experienced a divorce. That figure is identical to the outcome among married adults who are not born again: 35%....Among the largest Protestant groups, those most likely to get divorced were Pentecostals (44%) while Presbyterians had the fewest divorces (28%)."

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"One out of every five adults (18%) who has ever been divorced has been divorced multiple times. That represents 7% of all Americans who have been married....Multiple divorces are also unexpectedly common among born again Christians. Barna’s figures show that nearly one-quarter of the married born agains (23%) get divorced two or more times."

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"Religious teaching or values minimally affect people's moral choices. The major influences on such decisions are the expected personal outcomes of their choices, minimizing conflict over their choices, and the values their parents taught them."

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"Forty one percent of the adults who attend Christian church services in a typical week are not born again Christians - meaning they have not embraced Jesus Christ as their savior."

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That last one should help you out. He eliminates 41% of church attenders right off the bat. Of course, that's part of my evidence of the failure of Christianity. You and I both know that a far larger percentage (I calculated 97% once, based on a personal survey of several hundred Americans in Alaska & Germany) would have to be eliminated in order to have a core group of Christians who could be said to be seriously and diligently practicing their faith.