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Author | Topic: Education | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Trixie Member (Idle past 3736 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined: |
I had to read this more than once to be sure you, as a Christian, actually said the following;
I know there are many benefits to science, and math, but as hypocritical as it may seem, none of it will matter someday, don't you agree? And theirein lies the problem. We are not living our lives in your "some day", we're living them NOW. We're not living our lives in Heaven with God, we're living them on this planet with disease and death and suffering. When you stand infront of God and He asks you what you have done to deserve entry to Heaven and eternal life how do you thinnk he will respond to your answer "I did nothing because someday it wouldn't matter anymore." When you reach that sort of mindset, you can happily stand by and watch children die terrible deaths because "someday it won't matter anymore." You can stand over your own child and observe their suffering, without researching possible treatments and choosing the best doctors because "someday it won't matter anymore." And with this mindset you can ignore all the evidence because "someday it won't matter anymore." As a subtle hint, does this ring any bells?
33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. 34 Then the King will say to those on the right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.' 37 "Then these righteous ones will reply, `Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison, and visit you?' 40 And the King will tell them, `I assure you, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!' 41 "Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, `Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his demons! 42 For I was hungry, and you didn't feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn't give me anything to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn't invite me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me no clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn't visit me.' 44 "Then they will reply, `Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?' 45 And he will answer, `I assure you, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life." Matthew 25:33-46 (NLT) Can I point out that by your system, feeding, clothing, tending the sick and and helping are physical things in a physical world which somday won't matter. Don't you think it is your holy duty to tell Jesus that He got it wrong and should never have said what He did because someday it won't matter, according to you. According to Jesus, it will matter very much and will determine whether you enter Heaven or are cast out. Use the mind God gave you to think, learn and understand. Use the heart God gave you to care for His children beause someday it will matter very much, maybe not to the children you did or didn't help, but to your eternal soul. I think the sentiment you expressed in your message demonstrates beautifully why YECs have such a difficult time with evolution. They focus in on such a narrow interpretation that they can't see the wood for the trees and end up making statements or holding beliefs which are totally contradictory to what we actually observe in this world, the natural world. You've gone a step further. You seem to realise that what you see conflicts with what you want to believe so you've made up a reason why you can ignore what you see. The problem is that, in your desperation, you have managed to contradict Jesus Himself in the process. Look at the world around you. It's physical, you're physical, you have a spiritual component, but the interaction of the spiritual and the physical is what Jesus' teaching was all about. You've thrown out the physical and with that you've thrown out the entire physical life of Jesus. I've tried to keep this vaguely on topic, but my apologies to Mods etc.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4929 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
I think when a group of scientists rely on faked data and claims for over 100 years, despite repeated evidence the claims and data are faked, then yes, I think they are probably less rigorous than Jack Chick in their fact checking.
This message has been edited by randman, 12-11-2005 05:08 PM
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
We are not on the same page. I cite classes dedicated to work in mathematics, and science, in the measurment of this world. You have said that these things are essential for the benefit of human kind, but what is greater? The benefits on this life here on earth, or the relationship you build here with God. ?
Your body may be gone, I'm gonna carry you in. In my head, in my heart, in my soul. And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both live again. Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Don't think so.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
randman writes: I think when a group of scientists rely on faked data and claims for over 100 years, despite repeated evidence the claims and data are faked, then yes, I think they are probably less rigorous than Jack Chick in their fact checking. Your example does more damage to the creationist cause than anything I could say in rebuttal. People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: It may not matter to me, since I will be dead. But it matters to me now, and that fact that it mattered to many thousands of people in generations past (who are dead now) means that you and I can reap the benefits now. Likewise, because many thousands of people continue to care, many people who live hundreds of years from now can benefit from the knowledge of science and nature we continue to accumulate now. Don't you care at all about future generations? Do you only care about your own little world?
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Trixie Member (Idle past 3736 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined: |
How do you build a relationship with God if you don't give two hoots about His world and his children? What sort of relationship will you have when you say things which are diametrically opposed to the passage I quoted, the words of Jesus himself? You don't get it, do you? Jesus was telling us that it does matter what we do now, it matters very much. But, hey, if you think that Jesus got it wrong, that's your problem. It may not matter now, but it will matter someday!
You have to hold on to this idea that anything to do with the physical world doesn't matter because otherwise you would have to look at the evidence of biology, chemistry, physics and you would see it for what it is. Instead, you claim it doesn't matter, so you don't have to consider it at all. That's called putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la". It also demonstrates that, even with a basic science education, certain people can filter out facts and observations that don't gel with their theology and can utterly convince themselves that the facts are irrelevant, or worse, that they don't exist.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Since none of us have ever viewed the entire solar system at once, we can only infer that the sun is at the center. Would you say that people who have a religiously-based belief that the sun orbits the Earth hold just a valid a belief as others who accept the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System?
quote: As I said, no one has ever viewed the entire solar system at once, so we do not have complete knowledge of a Heliocentric Solar System, so do you doubt that the sun is at the center? Also, why do you reject all the other evidence besides fossils which point to evolution having happened, such as genetic evidence and direct observation of new species forming?
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: ...and yet, I have been waiting for weeks for you to educate me, and possibly change my mind based upon the evidence I have been begging you to provide, regarding your assertions on the effects of the ADC program on the birth rates of poor single women. You have the "attitude that you are asserting a proven fact", to use your own words, yet you refuse, when asked, to provide a single shred of credible, verifiable, substantive evidence to support it. Methinks you need to take your own advice, randman.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, sir, this is a perfect opportunity to show us all how much better you can check YOUR facts than all of those lazy, imcompetent, slacker, fraudulent scientists!! Why not go check your own stated "facts" you claimed were true regarding the ADC program and then post them at the thread that's been waiting for you?
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Ned_Flanders Inactive Member |
quote: Mythmaking??? You have got to be kidding, the only thing that is mythical is the Bible. Science relys on evidence taken from observations. Those may change or be refuted as a result of new technology, experiments, or ideas. Thats more than creationists can ever hope for. Creationism has absolutely nothing except some old book with stories that obviously don't add up. Back to mythmaking... Man was created from clay, and woman from mans rib. IDers continuously advertise lies such as science believes people came from monkeys. And you think Iders understand evolution. Your statement is as full of holes as creationism itself.
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MangyTiger Member (Idle past 6384 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
It never occurs to evos that one of the main reasons the public doubts their claims is that the evidence they have used... The thing is the public - including me and you - shouldn't really be the ones deciding on the relative merits of scientific theories other than in abstract discussion. I'll accept that the modern synthesis1 is no longer the best option we have when I see the folks wearing smart suits and posh frocks walking up to the stage to collect the Nobel prize for either showing it is wrong or providing a superior replacement theory. 1 Or whatever the most recent version is called I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then
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Ned_Flanders Inactive Member |
quote: Don't know whether you statement about biogenetic law being taught until the 50's is true. But that does not mean the scientific community as a whole still believed it. That could very well and is likely a case of a few just being idiots. Kind of like a people saying evolutionists believe humans came from monkeys. Creationists are still teaching that lie. Jack Chick is higher in scientific standards? I proved earlier he published lies on what evolution is, and you say he is at a higher standard? Man, you just showed your education level right there, deplorable....Your posts have done nothing but back up the origional idea of this thread. This message has been edited by Ned_Flanders, 12-11-2005 07:15 PM
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Ned_Flanders Inactive Member |
quote: Fact checking?! Go read the booklet I posted the link to earlier written by Jack Chick. That thing is full of lies... Pathetic how Christians will read a little comic book like that and take it as the truth without looking into the issue on their own. Again, shows the education level and mentality of creationists. You get the right person to say it and they will believe it. Reasons like that is why Scientology is gaining popularity. You have people so desperate they will believe anything.
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Ned_Flanders Inactive Member |
quote: Hoaxes, overstatments, exagerations... Again, your giving examples that are wide spread in Christian views of creaionism. Science may make mistakes and correct itself, but creationists are advertising the same hollow statements over and over. Creationists can't even support their view (not theory).
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1497 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I think when a group of scientists rely on faked data and claims for over 100 years, despite repeated evidence the claims and data are faked, then yes, I think they are probably less rigorous than Jack Chick in their fact checking. My wife is performing research that wouldn't be possible if the evolutionary model weren't fundamentally accurate. Almost single-handedly her research proves common decent, at least for one broad family of beetles. Absolutely none of her research is based on Haekel's embryology or any of the other two examples you continually, and inaccurately, harp on as "proof of evolutionist duplicity." Your claims that all evolutionists rely on these three discredited "hoaxes" are unsupportable and ridiculous on their face. Jack Chick has greater intellectual rigor than my wife? You're either being deliberately insulting, which is an abominable offense made doubly abominable by your admin status, or you have no ability to assess intellectual rigor, which makes your admin status an abomination in itself. Either way, Percy and the other admins are derelict to allow you to continue in that capacity. And you are derelict for continuing to repeat these outrageous and disgusting slanders without stepping down from your role as admin. The board deserves far better than you.
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