Education

I had to read this more than once to be sure you, as a Christian, actually said the following; And theirein lies the problem. We are not living our lives in your "some day", we're living them NOW. We're not living our lives in Heaven with God, we're living them on this planet with disease and death and suffering.When you stand infront of God and He asks you what you have done to deserve entry to Heaven and eternal life how do you thinnk he will respond to your answer"I did nothing because someday it wouldn't matter anymore."When you reach that sort of mindset, you can happily stand by and watch children die terrible deaths because "someday it won't matter anymore."You can stand over your own child and observe their suffering, without researching possible treatments and choosing the best doctors because "someday it won't matter anymore."And with this mindset you can ignore all the evidence because "someday it won't matter anymore."As a subtle hint, does this ring any bells? Can I point out that by your system, feeding, clothing, tending the sick and and helping are physical things in a physical world which somday won't matter. Don't you think it is your holy duty to tell Jesus that He got it wrong and should never have said what He did because someday it won't matter, according to you. According to Jesus, it will matter very much and will determine whether you enter Heaven or are cast out.Use the mind God gave you to think, learn and understand. Use the heart God gave you to care for His children beause someday it will matter very much, maybe not to the children you did or didn't help, but to your eternal soul.I think the sentiment you expressed in your message demonstrates beautifully why YECs have such a difficult time with evolution. They focus in on such a narrow interpretation that they can't see the wood for the trees and end up making statements or holding beliefs which are totally contradictory to what we actually observe in this world, the natural world. You've gone a step further. You seem to realise that what you see conflicts with what you want to believe so you've made up a reason why you can ignore what you see. The problem is that, in your desperation, you have managed to contradict Jesus Himself in the process.Look at the world around you. It's physical, you're physical, you have a spiritual component, but the interaction of the spiritual and the physical is what Jesus' teaching was all about. You've thrown out the physical and with that you've thrown out the entire physical life of Jesus.I've tried to keep this vaguely on topic, but my apologies to Mods etc.

I think when a group of scientists rely on faked data and claims for over 100 years, despite repeated evidence the claims and data are faked, then yes, I think they are probably less rigorous than Jack Chick in their fact checking.This message has been edited by randman, 12-11-2005 05:08 PM

We are not on the same page. I cite classes dedicated to work in mathematics, and science, in the measurment of this world. You have said that these things are essential for the benefit of human kind, but what is greater? The benefits on this life here on earth, or the relationship you build here with God. ?

---

Your body may be gone, I'm gonna carry you in.
In my head, in my heart, in my soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both live again.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Don't think so.

Your example does more damage to the creationist cause than anything I could say in rebuttal.

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

quote:

---

I know there are many benefits to science, and math, but as hypocritical as it may seem, none of it will matter someday, don't you agree?

---

It may not matter to me, since I will be dead.But it matters to me now, and that fact that it mattered to many thousands of people in generations past (who are dead now) means that you and I can reap the benefits now.Likewise, because many thousands of people continue to care, many people who live hundreds of years from now can benefit from the knowledge of science and nature we continue to accumulate now.Don't you care at all about future generations? Do you only care about your own little world?

How do you build a relationship with God if you don't give two hoots about His world and his children? What sort of relationship will you have when you say things which are diametrically opposed to the passage I quoted, the words of Jesus himself? You don't get it, do you? Jesus was telling us that it does matter what we do now, it matters very much. But, hey, if you think that Jesus got it wrong, that's your problem. It may not matter now, but it will matter someday!You have to hold on to this idea that anything to do with the physical world doesn't matter because otherwise you would have to look at the evidence of biology, chemistry, physics and you would see it for what it is. Instead, you claim it doesn't matter, so you don't have to consider it at all. That's called putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "La la la".It also demonstrates that, even with a basic science education, certain people can filter out facts and observations that don't gel with their theology and can utterly convince themselves that the facts are irrelevant, or worse, that they don't exist.

quote:

---

If you want to believe that God made the world 6000 years ago, and that the bible is an historical document, then you can twist anything to fit into what you believe, the same as you can attempt to explain how we grew from primitive species to a complex one. The fact is, that none of us really know.

---

Since none of us have ever viewed the entire solar system at once, we can only infer that the sun is at the center.Would you say that people who have a religiously-based belief that the sun orbits the Earth hold just a valid a belief as others who accept the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System?

quote:

---

For not only is there not a complete fossil record which Substantiates the evolutionists claims,

---

As I said, no one has ever viewed the entire solar system at once, so we do not have complete knowledge of a Heliocentric Solar System, so do you doubt that the sun is at the center?Also, why do you reject all the other evidence besides fossils which point to evolution having happened, such as genetic evidence and direct observation of new species forming?

quote:

---

The attitude of evos is they are asserting a proven fact, and they assert this with more dogmatism than any other area of science I know of. The idea they consider it scientifically, as something not proven, is demonstrably proven wrong by the inherent and unreasonable dogmatism of evos.

---

...and yet, I have been waiting for weeks for you to educate me, and possibly change my mind based upon the evidence I have been begging you to provide, regarding your assertions on the effects of the ADC program on the birth rates of poor single women.You have the "attitude that you are asserting a proven fact", to use your own words, yet you refuse, when asked, to provide a single shred of credible, verifiable, substantive evidence to support it.Methinks you need to take your own advice, randman.

quote:

---

I think when a group of scientists rely on faked data and claims for over 100 years, despite repeated evidence the claims and data are faked, then yes, I think they are probably less rigorous than Jack Chick in their fact checking.

---

Well, sir, this is a perfect opportunity to show us all how much better you can check YOUR facts than all of those lazy, imcompetent, slacker, fraudulent scientists!!Why not go check your own stated "facts" you claimed were true regarding the ADC program and then post them at the thread that's been waiting for you?

quote:

---

I see evos, even scientists, showing a deplorable lack of scientific rigor and basic logic and reasoning. Not to sidetrack this, but I learned this past week debating on Haeckel's fraudulent drawings, that it wasn't just that his drawings were used in textbooks, but according to the 1997 Richardson study, evolutionist scientists in their research had pretty much just taken the claim of a single phylotypic stage on faith without any citations, except maybe Haeckel who had faked his data.

​

It was quite eye-opening to say the least, but I think it illustrates a point. Evos claim to be more scientific, but often I find evos are really very far from science, but just clothe unscientific approaches and reasoning, such as basing theories (such as a phylotypic stage) off of unsubtantiated and unproven claims), with scientific data.

​

Evolutionism, it appears to me then, to be more of a hybrid of mythmaking and real science, a sort of pseudo-science.

​

On the other hand, often the informed creationist or IDer seems to understand evolutionary theory better than evos themselves.

---

Mythmaking??? You have got to be kidding, the only thing that is mythical is the Bible. Science relys on evidence taken from observations. Those may change or be refuted as a result of new technology, experiments, or ideas. Thats more than creationists can ever hope for. Creationism has absolutely nothing except some old book with stories that obviously don't add up.Back to mythmaking... Man was created from clay, and woman from mans rib.IDers continuously advertise lies such as science believes people came from monkeys. And you think Iders understand evolution.Your statement is as full of holes as creationism itself.

The thing is the public - including me and you - shouldn't really be the ones deciding on the relative merits of scientific theories other than in abstract discussion.I'll accept that the modern synthesis¹ is no longer the best option we have when I see the folks wearing smart suits and posh frocks walking up to the stage to collect the Nobel prize for either showing it is wrong or providing a superior replacement theory.¹ Or whatever the most recent version is called

---

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

quote:

---

Can't be worse than what the evos do in teaching the Biogenetic law until the 50s, 60 years after it was known to be wrong, or presenting Haeckel's faked drawings claiming a single phylotypic stage, claiming human gill slits, etc, etc,...

​

I am sorry, but Jack Chick is about the same level, actually a little higher, in adherence to scientific standards, imo, than most of what passes as evolutionism.

---

Don't know whether you statement about biogenetic law being taught until the 50's is true. But that does not mean the scientific community as a whole still believed it. That could very well and is likely a case of a few just being idiots. Kind of like a people saying evolutionists believe humans came from monkeys. Creationists are still teaching that lie.Jack Chick is higher in scientific standards? I proved earlier he published lies on what evolution is, and you say he is at a higher standard? Man, you just showed your education level right there, deplorable....
Your posts have done nothing but back up the origional idea of this thread.This message has been edited by Ned_Flanders, 12-11-2005 07:15 PM

quote:

---

I think when a group of scientists rely on faked data and claims for over 100 years, despite repeated evidence the claims and data are faked, then yes, I think they are probably less rigorous than Jack Chick in their fact checking.

---

Fact checking?! Go read the booklet I posted the link to earlier written by Jack Chick. That thing is full of lies...Pathetic how Christians will read a little comic book like that and take it as the truth without looking into the issue on their own. Again, shows the education level and mentality of creationists. You get the right person to say it and they will believe it. Reasons like that is why Scientology is gaining popularity. You have people so desperate they will believe anything.

quote:

---

Perhaps if evos stuck to science instead of relying on hoaxes, frauds, overstatements and exagerrations, they would have more success, but listening to basic evo claims is like hearing Al Gore claim to have too the initiative in creating the internet or another dem come out and promise a middle class tax cut.

​

It just doesn't work anymore because people are seeing these types of things for what they are, false evidentiary claims.

---

Hoaxes, overstatments, exagerations... Again, your giving examples that are wide spread in Christian views of creaionism. Science may make mistakes and correct itself, but creationists are advertising the same hollow statements over and over. Creationists can't even support their view (not theory).

My wife is performing research that wouldn't be possible if the evolutionary model weren't fundamentally accurate. Almost single-handedly her research proves common decent, at least for one broad family of beetles. Absolutely none of her research is based on Haekel's embryology or any of the other two examples you continually, and inaccurately, harp on as "proof of evolutionist duplicity."Your claims that all evolutionists rely on these three discredited "hoaxes" are unsupportable and ridiculous on their face. Jack Chick has greater intellectual rigor than my wife? You're either being deliberately insulting, which is an abominable offense made doubly abominable by your admin status, or you have no ability to assess intellectual rigor, which makes your admin status an abomination in itself.Either way, Percy and the other admins are derelict to allow you to continue in that capacity. And you are derelict for continuing to repeat these outrageous and disgusting slanders without stepping down from your role as admin. The board deserves far better than you.