Arbitrary Salvation?

Hello there. This is my first topic and first post, so I ask that you please bear with me. I've been a lurker for over a year and I think I have a handle on how things work, but we're all prone to error from time to time.To give a little background to this topic, I was raised a Christian and identified as one for most of my life. Only in the past few years have I questioned, and subsequently lost, my faith. The reasons why are irrelevant to this thread. Despite the fact that I am now an atheist, i'm still very interested in religion, especially Christianity as it is the one I am most familiar with.The focus of this thread is on a certain aspect of Christian dogma that seems to be mainstream. I know that there are many different interpretations of the bible represented here, so some may not want to respond if they simply wish to argue over the validity of this. The tenet i'm speaking of is the basic means of salvation. From my understanding, the only way to salvation is by believing in Jesus Christ. He lived, died for our sins, rose from the dead, and so on. I found this a very arbitrary criteria for salvation when I was a believer, and I still do now. It's always said that good works won't get you into heaven. It seems as if that would be the more just method. This means of salvation is based soley on your belief in Jesus and nothing else. My question is, do you find the belief in Jesus to be an arbitrary criteria for salvation?The belief in something says nothing about the quality of someone. If this view is right, good people are destined for hell, simply because they don't believe in Jesus. I can't help but think it unjust and arbitrary. Your thoughts are appreciated.Note: This was written rather hastily, and i'm sure there is plenty that can be cleaned up. I just want to get some general feedback before I tweak it, and perhaps delve further.

That's fine with me. Whatever you think is best.

I don't equate "not believing in Jesus" with "rejecting him." I would have to believe in him first before I could reject him and his message.It isn't as if i'm rejecting God. If he's real, I certainly want to know him. This isn't a case of God offering a handshake and being spat on. It's more a case of God throwing a book full of stories that stretch the limits of reason into the street, and assuming that anyone who doesn't pick it up and believe it wants nothing to do with him.--You didn't really answer my question though. Do you think it's an arbitrary criteria?This message has been edited by Madfish, 12-24-2005 04:20 AM

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personally i think only salvation without works is pointless

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So you agree that a salvation without works is arbitrary, yes?

I tried talking to God for years and never receieved an answer.You still haven't answered my question. Is the criteria arbitrary?

I take the following from your post:1) One who truly believes in Christ will invariably commit good works.2) Good works are, by themselves, worthless when it comes to salvation. Their only function is to serve as evidence of said salvation.True believers may indeed practice good deeds, but that isn't really the point. Atheists, for instance, may live a life full of comparable or even better deeds, but still fall short of salvation. The reason? They don't believe in Christ. Personally, I see something unjust about that. I understand that it might be just as far as God is concerned, but if that's the case, then my problem is with his criteria.The same situation keeps arising in my mind. Two people lead identical lives, their religious beliefs being the only difference. God accepts one into his kingdom and rejects the other. The line drawn between them is arbitrary.

The correct way to communicate with God might be better for another topic. I'd like to keep this one focused on the OP.

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You are under the false impression that it is possible for atheists and believers to "live identical lives."

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What is false about it? An atheist can lead an identical life to a Christian in terms of good works. Indeed, some lead better lives in that respect. This other groups isn't limited to atheists either. It can include members of other religions as well. Ghandi, for instance, led a better life than many Christians.

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Good works in love of God versus good works in rejection of God are entirely different things.

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Good works in rejection of God? I know of no such thing. I know about good works in love of my fellow man. If there is a difference in the good works in love of God, it is to their detriment for those works would be done to serve someone other than their fellow human beings.

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You are under the illusion that human beings deserve something from God. The fact is that we all deserve Hell, but because He is a God of love He has chosen to save some of us, not for any merit in us, that's for sure, but just because it pleases Him to save some.

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Explain to me why we all deserve hell. Why? I've done nothing to deserve eternal damnation. Is the entire human race doomed because of Adam and Eve. Seems a bit unfair to punish all of us for something we had no part in.

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We'd rather He saved you than that He didn't. Christians no doubt pray for you.

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I know that they are sincere in their belief and concern. I appreciate such gestures.

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All I can say to your feeling it is all so unjust is that you will have the opportunity some day to tell it to the Judge.

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I cannot lie to myself. I have reasons for my lack of belief, and if called to explain them, i'm prepared to state my case to the best of my ability.

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You HAVE done things to deserve Hell. That's the point. We have lost our sensitivity to how completely at odds with God's nature we are since the Fall, the infinite requirements of the Law, of God's nature.

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What things? Was I just born with sin?Are all of us at odds with God's nature? What about those who do tremendous good in the world. If they are at odd with God's nature, what does that say about his nature?

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We think we are good when we are not.

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Define good. How do we know if we are good?

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Simply doubting God is a tremendous sin.

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Why? This has never made sense to me. Are we punished for exercising the reason we're endowed with?

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But I don't suppose this will persuade you either.

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Not to my satisfaction, no, but it's not because i'm unwilling to be persuaded.

I will certainly try to track down the book. Thanks for the reccomendation and input.

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No matter how good we are in some sense or other we are simply incapable of being good enough. It's in our nature.

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If it's in our nature, what's the problem? It would be unfair to punish a lion or rabbit for acting according to their nature.

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It says He is so amazingly holy that we can't even imagine what such holiness is.

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Well, what I meant was, someone that does great things for people couldn't be "at odds" with God's nature. You can say they don't live up to his standard of excellence, but I fail to see how they could be at odds.

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Whatever you think good is isn't really good. That's all I was saying.

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Two people feed and shelter the homeless. One is a Christian and one isn't. It's the same act, but is it only good in the Christian's case? Again, the difference is arbitrary.

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Our reason is FALLEN, we are not what we were created to be. At the Fall our first parents lost their spiritual life in God, and all their capacities began to die. Our life depends upon God but sin destroys our connection with God, destroys our lifeline, and that means all our abilities. Over the millennia since then the infirmities have simply accumulated in the human race. We don't think as clearly as we were originally created to think (if we did we'd all agree with each other about everything).

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If that is the case, then my fallen reason is a result of Adam and Eve's actions, yes? If so, i'm being punished for something I had no part in. I also fail to see how conformity is evidence of clear thought.

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Have you spent much time reading the Bible or reading CHristian books?

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It was reading the bible, in part, that led me to hold the opinions of religion I have.This message has been edited by Madfish, 12-27-2005 09:49 PM

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A good relativist might tell you that "justness" IS arbitrary. The reason you find it just is because your arbitrarily selected justness conflicts with that you view.

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Perhaps I did. If "justness" is indeed arbitrary, then i'm not sure how much room for conversation there is on it.

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For example, you seem to believe that an individual should be judged for their actions, not those of their ancestors. Or that an individual shouldn't be blamed for things that they cannot help but do (i.e. use fallen reason).

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Yes, I do not think it is fair to judge people for things that are beyond their control. Is that view arbitrary? I really don't know, but i'm sure a case can be made that it is.Do you think the situation I described is arbitrary as well?

I don't accept what you say because it is more of the same. It doesn't make sense to me. I have to trust my own thinking process. =/Thanks for taking part in the discussion though. I wish you the best as well.