Arbitrary Salvation?

The gospel isn't about some kind of mere belief, as in mere assent to the doctrines of Christianity -- whether it's belief in the deity of Christ, or His death on the cross or any of it -- it's about a kind of belief that is a complete casting of yourself on Jesus, trusting Him completely and living for Him completely.I like how truthlover illustrated it at one point a couple weeks ago, when he said In other words true belief, or faith in Jesus, inevitably leads one to good works, that is, obedience. That's what the letter of James says: faith without works is dead. The works don't save, but they express or evidence salvation.So I think you have in mind an empty belief, an intellectual sort of belief, not true belief. It starts with knowing you're a sinner who deserves death and who therefore NEEDS a Savior. Everything begins at that point. True good works begin at that point.{ABE: THe point is that we are incapable of good works to the degree that would save us, we fall so short of what God is and what God requires that if we were dependent upon our own works for salvation even the very very best most saintly person on earth would go to hell. This is simply in the nature of things, we are truly sinners. That has to be recognized before teh gospel makes sense, before believing in Christ makes sense. As long as anyone thinks there's any possibility of being saved by being good they are in deep dangerous delusion. God is that high above us, God is that perfect, that holy, that Good. As Jesus said, there is no one good but God. Scripture says in other places that there are none of us good, "no, not one." That has to be taken to heart before our need for a perfect Savior is felt and the gift of salvation is appreciated. Scripture says that even our BEST works are "filthy rags" -- this is why we need Him to give us clean robes, His own righteousness. This is given through faith in Him, the kind of faith that produces the complete trust and dependence upon Him and obedience to Him I'm talking about above.}This message has been edited by Faith, 12-26-2005 01:43 AM

You are under the false impression that it is possible for atheists and believers to "live identical lives." Good works in love of God versus good works in rejection of God are entirely different things. Like most people you have the whole thing backwards. You are under the illusion that human beings deserve something from God. The fact is that we all deserve Hell, but because He is a God of love He has chosen to save some of us, not for any merit in us, that's for sure, but just because it pleases Him to save some. We'd rather He saved you than that He didn't. Christians no doubt pray for you.All I can say to your feeling it is all so unjust is that you will have the opportunity some day to tell it to the Judge. I hope you will have changed your mind by then.

You HAVE done things to deserve Hell. That's the point. We have lost our sensitivity to how completely at odds with God's nature we are since the Fall, the infinite requirements of the Law, of God's nature. We think we are good when we are not. Simply doubting God is a tremendous sin. But I don't suppose this will persuade you either.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a matter of not being able because of the sin nature to love God as we should or love our neighbor as we should. No matter how good we are in some sense or other we are simply incapable of being good enough. It's in our nature. It says He is so amazingly holy that we can't even imagine what such holiness is. Whatever you think good is isn't really good. That's all I was saying. Our reason is FALLEN, we are not what we were created to be. At the Fall our first parents lost their spiritual life in God, and all their capacities began to die. Our life depends upon God but sin destroys our connection with God, destroys our lifeline, and that means all our abilities. Over the millennia since then the infirmities have simply accumulated in the human race. We don't think as clearly as we were originally created to think (if we did we'd all agree with each other about everything). Have you spent much time reading the Bible or reading CHristian books?

What can I say, you don't want to accept anything I've said so far, so I don't see any reason to continue at what is certain to be more of the same. You trust your own thinking process completely, and dismiss mine and most of the history of Christianity for that matter. That's your prerogative of course. I wish you the best.

Stop lecturing me.

Who do you think you are?