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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5619 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Darwinist forum | |||||||||||||||||||
John Inactive Member |
quote: If one or the other variants reproduces slightly more successfully than the other then the whole population slides toward the more successful variant. Where do you see a requirement for extinction?
quote: This is the another option. If two variants reproduce with equal success, the frequency of both variants goes up within the population. And I'd say pretty much everyone in the field realizes this. I can't see how it could be missed.
quote: Ever hear of Hegel? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: We have examples of this happening-- kudzu for example. About 25 miles from where I now live a S. American critter called a nutria-- kind-of a rat/beaver looking thing-- is wiping out some native wildlife. It happens, so why is it a problem that it is accounted for in the ToE?
quote: "Nature red in tooth and claw" is from a poem by Alfred Lord Tennyson. It isn't even about evolution but the phrase have a ring to it and people have picked it up. Even so, it doesn't follow that evolutionary biologists don't realize that maybe two species might survive side by side.
quote: Same as before, during, and after the black phase; the wing color is camoflage.
quote: Do you mean there is a white moth variety and a black moth variety that compete on against the other? ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Whole groups of animals go extinct, individual animals die. So, you object to natural selection because some animals die?
quote: Scientists don't notice that some animals don't die? Of course they do. The idea is key to NS.
quote: Dawkins was flamboyant. Big deal. And what do you think he meant by "sums up." Typically, in English-- at least where I live-- to sum up an idea means something like "gloss over the messy bits in favor of something memorable." That is, say something that has a ring to it.
quote: When both variants within the same interbreeding population are equally successful at reproducing the next generation will have a higher frequency of the traits associated with those two variants. If there are only two variants, the next generation is pretty much the same as the parent generation. Where is the problem?
quote: It is hard to tell, but I think you have the whole story wrong. The moths in question are called peppered-moths. They were named such because they are speckled-- black on a white background. This speckled pattern serves as camoflage when the moth lands on the bark of certain trees. As the bark color changed due to the effects of pollution, the moths with darker marking survived, and eventually the whole population of moths turned mostly black. The polution issue was brought under control, the bark turned white again and thus the darker moths became more vulnerable and the whole population turned back to the mostly white speckled state. In other words, there was no white variety in competition with the black variety. There was ONE variety with many individuals each with a slightly different speckle pattern.
quote: No. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Except that nothing falls outside of the theory, Syamsu. You are mistaken.
quote: Dawkin's science is respected, his popular press books are not considered scientific texts. They are science for the layman-- introductory texts. I have seen this opinion stated on this forum time and again.
quote: I don't deny that black wingcolor had reproductive fitness, I deny that there WAS a black wingcolor but instead there were slight variations in the speckle patterns and the wing colors of the peppered moths. It should be noted that we aren't even talking about black verses white moths, but about grey verses much darker grey.
quote: I didn't say this either. The speckle pattern was camoflage. It helped the moth blend into the patterns on tree bark. I stated this quite plainly in my previous post.
quote: Guess again. Or better yet, do some research on it. This part f the discussion is so basic I am having a hard time understanding how you are missing it.
quote: This is primarily just handwaving, Syamsu. But the moths are just one of thousands of examples. ------------------
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Yes, of course.
quote: The individuals don't 'become less adapted', the individuals stay the same while the environment changes around them. They may not be able to survive in that new environment, of course. I think this is what you mean. I'm just trying to be clear.
quote: I don't know. This you'd have to figure out case by case.
quote: Variation in a population IS NOT REQUIRED for natural selection to apply. It is required for adaptation and evolution to occur, but it is not required for natural selection to occur. If there is no variation or not enough variation to matter, then the whole population is selected for or against at the same level of intensity.
quote: Not really. You are bleeding into the ToE aspects. Natural selection is "If an individual survives long enough it reproduces, if it doesn't survive long enough it does not reproduce." That's it, really. There is no need for variants at all. You could have clones-- no variation at all-- and this would still apply. This kind of variant-less population is what triggered the Irish potatoe famine. Most of the potatoes grown in the affected areas were so closely related that once a disease -- an agent of natural selection-- took hold it ran wild.
quote: No. This is due to your misconceptions.
quote: No.
quote: Actually, I can't think of much that falls outside it.
quote: I didn't see you mention moth antennae either. This is silly. You started talking about wing color so I stuck with it. Legs do not fall outside of the theory. I don't know if leg colors changed in this case though.
quote: I can't think of any examples.
quote: The ability to photosynthesise can be selected for or against. What is your point?
quote: Nothing found for Dawkins Work Biblio quote: ummmm.... sorry, but I did mention this. The speckle patterns were camoflage.
quote: Do you have evidence for this? Nope. Cause this isn't what actually happened. You are missing the point that the moth population was not split into two populations along color lines. Perhaps, pre-dark-trees they all were equally successful, but that dynamic changed when the trees started getting darker. When that happened the darker ones had an advantage. I think you are envisioning something that never happened. Think about domestic cats. No two cats are the same and color varies wildy, yet do not divide themselves into populations based on color. It is one big interbreeding cat population for the most part. Color isn't a factor, or all colors are selected for or against equally. This is the situation you had before the trees turned black. Now, humans capture a cat population, then release the mostly white, and light brown ones. This leaves a captured cat population of only the darker colors. This is what happened with the moths. As the trees turned black predators ate the light colored ones, leaving only the dark. The next genration of cats will contain fewer light cats and more dark ones. If you again release the light ones, the next generation will have fewer still light cats. If you do this for long enough the captured population will no longer contain the genes for light fur. With the moths, the process of tree darkening reversed before the genes for light moths completely vanished, so the white ones made a comeback. ------------------
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