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Author Topic:   Ancient Attribution: Humble Anonymity or Pseudepigrapha‎
idontlikeforms
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 21 (275056)
01-02-2006 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
10-28-2005 5:51 PM


Re: Book of James (Pseudepigraphal)
quote:
The Book of James is not considered to be written by James, the brother of Jesus, but is not considered to be written to deceive readers and present views contrary to the views of James himself.
AFAIK, James, the author of James, is traditionally viewed to be the brother of Jesus. It's a minority view among Evangelical scholars that this is not the case.
quote:
It is interesting to note that the author of James does not seem to share Paul's teachings, which would fit since James and the members of the Jerusalem Church remained Jewish in every sense of the word. Therefore a writer passing on the teachings of James would conflict with Paul's teachings.
First of all this assertion is conjecture, though I admit it is plausible. But even if James has different theological views than Paul, it does not logically follow that the teaching in the book James conflicts with the teaching in the books written by Paul. Keep in mind that the Early Christians usually viewed both as inspired and the same with the Nicaean council. Evidently they viewed the writings of both as compatible and not logically inconsistent.
quote:
So the author of this book does not seem to remain anonymous due to deference to God, but to pass on the teachings of his teacher.
He's not anonymous. He calls himself James in verse 1.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by purpledawn, posted 10-28-2005 5:51 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ramoss, posted 01-02-2006 6:28 PM idontlikeforms has replied
 Message 18 by purpledawn, posted 01-04-2006 3:18 AM idontlikeforms has not replied

  
idontlikeforms
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 21 (275061)
01-02-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
10-31-2005 4:36 AM


Re: Old Testament as Pseudopigrapha
quote:
This would go for Moses' books too although the Bible never claims Moses wrote any books
This is incorrect. Mosaic authorship of the Penteteuch is refered to by plenty of other Biblical authors, even in the Penteteuch itself. Exodus 17:14; 24:4-7; 34:27; Numbers 33:2; Deuteronomy 31:9, 22, 24, Joshua 1:7-8; 8:32-34; Judges 3:4; 1 Kings 2:3; 2 Kings 14:6; 21:8; 2 Chronicles 25:4; Ezra 6:18; Nehemiah 8:1; 13:1; Daniel 9:11-13, Matthew 8:4; 19:7-8; Mark 7:10; 12:26; Luke 24:27, 44; John 5:46-47; 7:19, John 1:17; Acts 6:14; 13:39; 15:5; 1 Corinthians 9:9; 2 Corinthians 3:15; Hebrews 10:28.
quote:
This led to another thought, technically speaking, we do not know who wrote any of the Old Testament books, so is it possible that the entire Old Testament is pseudopigraphic?
Of course we do. Most of the books give the authors' names.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 10-31-2005 4:36 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 01-02-2006 4:40 PM idontlikeforms has not replied
 Message 16 by Discreet Label, posted 01-03-2006 7:05 PM idontlikeforms has replied

  
idontlikeforms
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 21 (275214)
01-03-2006 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by ramoss
01-02-2006 6:28 PM


Re: Book of James (Pseudepigraphal)
First of all let me just say that James being written by James the brother of Jesus is in no way an article of faith to me. I do not view it is mandatory that he was the author for it to be authoritative. But I do not see anything compelling in this citation to force me to abandon the traditional view.
quote:
Kummel presents the reasons that most scholars suspect James to be a pseudepigraph (Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 412-3):
1. The cultured language of James is not that of a simple Palestinian. Sevenster's evidence that the Greek language was much used in Palestine at that time and could be learned does not prove that a Jew whose mother tongue was Aramaic could normally write in literary Greek. Most of those who defend the thesis that James was written by the Lord's brother must assume that it achieved its linguistic form through the help of a Hellenistic Jew, but there is no evidence in the text that the assistance of a secretary gave shape to the present linguistic state of the document, and even if this were the case the question would still remain completely unanswered which part of the whole comes from the real author and which part from the "secretary."
This is just wild conjecture. We haven't got a clue whether James was profficient in Greek or not.
quote:
2. It is scarcely conceivable that the Lord's brother, who remained faithful to the Law, could have spoken of "the perfect law of freedom" (1:25) or that he could have given concrete expression to the Law in ethical commands (2:11 f) without mentioning even implicitly any cultic-ritual requirements.
I don't see why not. James rigid adherence to the Law does not mean he by neccessity viewed practicing Christianity without it as heretical.
quote:
3. Would the brother of the Lord really omit any reference to Jesus and his relationship to him, even though the author of JAmes emphatically presents himself in an authoritative role?
Sure. Why does he have to mention Jesus?
quote:
4. The debate in 2:14 ff with a misunderstood secondary stage of Pauline theology not only presupposes a considerable chronological distance from Paul - whereas James died in the year 62 - but also betrays complete ignorance of the polemical intent of Pauline theology, which lapse can scarcely be attributed to James, who as late as 55/56 met with Paul in Jerusalem (Acts 21:18 ff).
Here's James 2:14.
quote:
What good is it, my brothers,
if a man says he has faith, but has no works? Can faith save him?
I'm assuming the implication is that he thinks James is saying faith doesn't save. But it seems to me that James is simply pointing out that one can say they have faith but if there is never any fruit from it, than perhaps they really don't. Grammatically, his interpretation of the passage makes sense. But doesn't mine also? See the next few verses after this too and you'll see James expounding on what he's getting at in the passage above.
quote:
5. As the history of the canon shows (see 27.2), it was only very slowly and against opposition that James became recognized as the owrk of the Lord's brother, therefore as apostolic and canonical. Thus there does not seem to have been any old tradition that it originated with the brother of the Lord.
But what are the reasons for that? Look this guy has a well thought out logical argument, it's just not compelling. Nothing he says compels me to seriously consider that perhaps Jesus' brother didn't write James. I read the other citations on the website you provided too and it's the same for them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ramoss, posted 01-02-2006 6:28 PM ramoss has not replied

  
idontlikeforms
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 21 (275509)
01-03-2006 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Discreet Label
01-03-2006 7:05 PM


Re: Old Testament as Pseudopigrapha
quote:
I'm not certain if all of the Penteteuch was written by Moses as Deut. 32:51 does record Moses dying. Truth is that it is really difficult trying to write a book when suffering from rigorum mortis.
And I think there was a thread or two that discussed Mosaic authorship in more detail.
http://EvC Forum: could moses have written the first five books of the bible -->EvC Forum: could moses have written the first five books of the bible
Right. Moses couldn't have written the last 8 verses of Deuteronomy. Actually I comment on that in a post I just made in the thread you give too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Discreet Label, posted 01-03-2006 7:05 PM Discreet Label has not replied

  
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