Proofs of Evolution: A Mediocre Debate (Faith, robinrohan and their invitees)

Yes. And part of the rationale of "faith, not works," I believe, was corruption in the Church by which "works" often meant money given to the Church ("indulgences"). Calvinism was known more for predestination and innate depravity.In the literature of the Middle Ages, one image that keeps cropping up is the idea of an "account book" in heaven, consisting of the debits and credits of your life. You earn your way to heaven if the account ended up in the black. Protestantism exploded this idea. Due to our innate depravity, one can't "earn" one's way to heaven. I note that you did not say that faith initially consists of believing in the existence of God, and secondarily, believing in the divinity of Christ. An important omission. Yes. The formula is faith, then grace, then works. If one has sincere faith, grace will descend, which will make you a better and more holy person. Holy people naturally do good works. In the old days, they called this proof "evidence." And they made rather strange use of this concept. All sorts of things could be "evidence."This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-13-2006 08:24 AM

To Luther, salvation by faith rather than works was about his own personal sense of sin, his recognition as a monk that nothing he did, no amount of penances, reforms, resolutions, confessions, actually took away his inner corruptions. He was far more sensitive to such inner things than most of us, but that is what led him to such joy when he finally understood in reading Romans that the offer of salvation through Christ was an offer to justify us through His blood even while in our sins. Not about indulgences or any such idea of works. It was about holiness, freedom from internal and external sin.One thing Luther seems to have understood completely is that nobody can ever be in God's presence who is not ABSOLUTELY free of sin. There is no halfway "Well I'm a good person so God will forgive me." No human being except Jesus Christ could ever achieve perfect sinlessness; even the holiest are far from it. That is why it took the death of the sinless God/Man to transfer His perfect righteousness to us in exchange for our sinfulness. It's the only way sinners could be saved. Yes, but Luther said much the same things, although Calvin developed the concepts more. They got attached more to Calvin because of a challenge to his writings after his death. In other words, these are also principles that fueled the Reformation in general, and they too are based on the Bible. All of it also goes back to Augustine as their original commentator I believe. But that's because the Account Book idea wasn't Biblical. The Medieval Church was full of all kinds of man-originated ideas, and it was the great achievement of the Reformation that it did away with them and got back to the Bible. Again, deeds count, and they'll count in heaven too, but as the result of salvation, how well we worked out our salvation, not the means of salvation. Not an intentional one though. I was caught up in emphasizing God's character or personality, the personal relationship of trust IN God, dependence ON God, rather than belief in particular doctrines ABOUT God, but they are also certainly a big part of faith. They define WHO our trust is IN. Actually it's grace, then faith, then works. You can't have faith without God's grace. Yes that is true also. Or, holy people naturally want to please God, obey God. Really, saved people, who know they aren't holy in themselves. Not following you, please explain.Evidence of faith? I have no problem using that term instead of "proof." Seems synonymous to me in this context.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 12:35 PM

But what it amounts to is that belief in a particular doctrine ("there is a God")is being seen here as a moral act. That's a problem. I thought the way you got grace was by having faith, by being part of the Covenant of Grace. (we need to talk about the Covenant of Works too--some puzzles there). Evidence of being a member of the Elect. One type of evidence was worldly success.One spent one's life collecting "evidence." Constant self-examination was called for. Do I really have faith or am I faking it?Sometimes what seemed like evidence began to seem like something different. A Puritan, having a high fever, thinks she's dying and says, "I could not read my evidence, as oft I read before." 1640s. Massachusetts Bay Colony.{I want to know about this because I actually teach a little of it as background for the lit. course. I don't want to teach something inaccurate!)

Seems you have read some things I haven't and it's going to take some thinking about in any case. I have other things to do for the next two to three hours. I gather you are farther east than I am so that will be getting into late afternoon for you I guess.

I'm in Texas.

I'm a couple time zones to the west.
I think next to Brits this board is heaviest on Texans.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 01:50 PM

I'll check in later. No rush.I live in the Bible Belt par excellence. We have more churches than
we do bars.What a place!

In a sense I suppose, but that's why I didn't mention the attributes but only God's character. However, I get your point, so yes, it is a moral act in that we are given the testimony of God's representatives to His existence and nature, and that being the case, not to believe them is immoral. I may have to do some research in this area since I don't immediately recognize what you have in mind.Yes, grace is also given for faith, it's a reciprocal thing, but it has to start with grace. That gets a bit into the Prosperity Gospel, or so it sounds, but I gather you aren't talking about anything so recent, so you'll have to explain. I will grant you that Calvinists do seem to be particularly susceptible to this sort of second-guessing of ourselves. But again, I'm not sure of the source of your view of this. Reference for that? Anything online? I don't suppose you have course notes or that sort of thing online that you'd be willing to link do you?This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 05:55 PM

The proposition is one of fact. I might say, "I believe there is such a place called Timbuctoo." This is of the same order as saying, "I believe there is a God."Well, I'm either correct or incorrect, but the answer to such a question cannot be good or bad.Now, I will grant you that motivations might enter it. Suppose a man says, "I believe my wife is cheating on me."This also is a question of truth or untruth. Either she is or she isn't. But the husband may have motivations that are moral or immoral.The quotation is from Anne Bradstreet's poem, "For Deliverance from a Fever." I couldn't find it on-line. Here's the stanza:Beclouded was my soul with fear
Of Thy displeasure sore,
Nor could I read my evidence
Which oft I read before.I'm not sure where I got some of that other stuff--it was a long time ago. But I would welcome your overall philosophy of Calvinism (I know--that's a tall order).

The moral element enters in with one's refusal or acceptance of the information that God exists, given by trustworthy human beings who have witnessed God.

What fascinates you so much about Calvinism?I like to argue basic Christian doctrine, but I don't normally get motivated to argue Calvinism as such, unless somebody gets belligerent against some Calvinist doctrine. I agree with the five points of Calvinism but I'm not a do-or-die Calvinist, and I'd even have to study the arguments for the five points to defend them. If I liked the preaching or the congregation in a nonCalvinist church I could be part of it quite easily.

When sorrows had begirt me round,
And pains within and out,
When in my flesh no part was found,
Then didst Thou rid me out.
My burning flesh in sweat did boil,
My aching head did break,
From side to side for ease I toil,
So faint I could not speak.
Beclouded was my soul with fear
Of Thy displeasure sore,
Nor could I read my evidence
Which oft I read before.
"Hide not Thy face from me!" I cried,
"From burnings keep my soul.
Thou know'st my heart, and hast me tried:
I on Thy mercies roll."
"O heal my soul," Thou know'st I said,
"Though flesh consume to nought,
What though in dust it shall be laid,
To glory 't shall be brought."
Thou heard'st, Thy rod Thou didst remove
And spared my body frail,
Thou show'st to me Thy tender love,
My heart no more might quail
O, praises to my mighty God,
Praise to my Lord, I say,
Who hath redeemed my soul from pit,
Praises to Him for aye.Page Not FoundWhen Sorrowes had begyrt me rovnd,
And Paines within and out,
When in my flesh no part was sovnd,
Then didst thou rid me out.
My burning flesh in sweat did boyle,
My aking head did break;
From side to side for ease I toyle,
So faint I could not speak.
Beclouded was my Soul with fear
Of thy Displeasure sore,
Nor could I read my Evidence
Which oft I read before.
Hide not thy face from me, I cry'd,
From Burnings keep my soul;
Thov know'st my heart, and hast me try'd;
I on thy Mercyes Rowl.
O, heal my Soul, thov know'st I said,
Tho' flesh consume to novght;
What tho' in dust it shall bee lay'd,
To Glory't shall bee brovght.
Thou heardst, thy rod thou didst remove,
And spar'd my Body frail,
Thou shew'st to me thy tender Love,
My heart no more might quail.
O, Praises to my mighty God,
Praise to my Lord, I say,
Who hath redeem'd my Soul from pitt:
Praises to him for Aye!File Not Found - All PoetryI take back something I said on another thread yesterday, about The Dark Night of the Soul. That's what she's experiencing, when all props to faith are removed. I never read Anne Bradstreet. I like what I saw on the websites devoted to her.

That's news to me.

All I meant was that I don't normally get too worked up over the issues that define Calvinism as opposed to more general Christian truths. Is that also news to you?This message has been edited by Faith, 01-13-2006 08:13 PM

Yes, I thought you were a die-hard Calvinist.Calvinism is your answer to modernism--we were talking about Tillich, etc.That's how this got started, I think.What else is there for you? The Roman Catholics accept evolution, officially.