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Author Topic:   Can random mutations cause an increase in information in the genome?
nwr
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Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
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Message 166 of 310 (286725)
02-15-2006 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by randman
02-15-2006 12:11 AM


Re: Clarify some please?
Are you saying that the general pattern of mutations is highly predictable but just random per individual occurence, as with rolling of dice, or something larger?
I wouldn't put it that way. The mutation rate is small enough, that it doesn't compare well to multiple rolls of dice.
If you could replay a small segment of life, then I would expect observable differences in the individual creatures that are there as a result of mutations.
The overall outcome of evolution might be similar. But that's because the direction is determined by averages over large populations, so that natural selection is a major factor in how a species evolves.

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NosyNed
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Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 167 of 310 (286726)
02-15-2006 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by randman
02-15-2006 12:30 AM


Re: Listen to the audio....
Randman, the definition of the word "random" used there is exactly as you describe the process but don't call random. You are making up an argument. It is utterly bogus!
Now, given that we agree that mutations aren't random because, in fact, nothing at all is. They are all what we will now call CR (constrained random) and all uses of the term random in all texts are actually CR.
Let's explain what SC is, an increase in it is or a decrease in it is. Let's have you tell us what CAN cause such changes and why a CR mutation with selection can not.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 168 of 310 (286727)
02-15-2006 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by randman
02-15-2006 12:21 AM


Re: Clarify some please?
Actually, dice rolling is a guided process.
Dice rolling is random. If we can't agree on that, at least, we're not even speaking the same language.
Until you're committed to speaking English in these discussions no debate with you is possible. If you insist on your own private definitions of words then it's simply not possible to speak to you.
Come back and find me when you're willing to speak the same language as the rest of us.

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NosyNed
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Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 169 of 310 (286728)
02-15-2006 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by randman
02-15-2006 12:21 AM


The trick to an honest dice game
Actually, dice rolling is a guided process. Dice don't roll by themselves generally.
Misuse of the term guided. The roll is set in motion but NOT guided. Dice are specifically rolled on surfaces which don't deaden the roll immediately if the did guidance would be (and we've all seen it done as kids) possible. If there was a hint that "guidence" at the level needed to make a meaningful difference is possible somebody gets shot.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 170 of 310 (286733)
02-15-2006 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by NosyNed
02-15-2006 12:39 AM


Re: The trick to an honest dice game
The point is they do not roll themselves. They are not autonomous. The whole process is not guided to the point of every roll of the dice coming out planned by the roller. Now, if say, God was rolling the dice, would He know what would happen?
Probably but that's theology. My point here is that the general pattern is predictable and so really not random per se.
This message has been edited by randman, 02-15-2006 12:49 AM

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NosyNed
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Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 171 of 310 (286734)
02-15-2006 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by randman
02-15-2006 12:47 AM


Fine agree with jar, it makes no difference to where we go next
So you are jar are in agreement. So what? Get to the topic of THIS thread and stick to it.

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SuperNintendo Chalmers
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Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 172 of 310 (286742)
02-15-2006 1:45 AM


Final definition
Definition of random process. A (one-dimensional) random process is a (scalar) function y(t), where t is usually time, for which the future evolution is not determined uniquely by any set of initial dataor at least by any set that is knowable to you and me. In other words, random process is just a fancy phrase that means unpredictable function. Throughout this chapter we shall insist for simplicity that our random processes y take on a continuum of values ranging over some interval, often but not always -8 to +8. The generalization to ys with discrete (e.g., integral) values is straightforward. Examples of random processes are: (i) the total energy E(t) in a cell of gas that is in contact with a heat bath; (ii) the temperature T(t) at the corner of Main Street and Center Street in Logan, Utah; (iii) the earth-longitude f(t) of a specific oxygen molecule in the earths atmosphere. One can also deal with random processes that are vector or tensor functions of time, but in this chapters brief introduction we shall refrain from doing so; the generalization to multidimensional random processes is straightforward. Ensembles of random processes. Since the precise time evolution of a random process is not predictable, if one wishes to make predictions one can do so only probablistically. The foundation for probablistic predictions is an ensemble of random processesi.e., a collection of a huge number of random processes each of which behaves in its own, unpredictable way. In the next section we will use the ergodic hypothesis to construct, from a single random process that interests us, a conceptual ensemble whose statistical properties carry information about the time evolution of the interesting process. However, until then we will assume that someone else has given us an ensemble; and we shall develop a probablistic characterization of it.
Clearly mutation is an unpredictable function. Whether it produces a pattern or not is irrelevent. In fact many random processes produce patterns. Normal, pareto, etc. distributions are all examples of this. Mutation is clearly random by the mathematical definition of a random process.
So I think we are done with this topic
Full article:
Page Not Found The Division of Physics, Mathematics and Astronomy
This message has been edited by Admin, 02-15-2006 09:17 AM

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Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 173 of 310 (286743)
02-15-2006 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by randman
02-15-2006 12:20 AM


Re: random?
I think the significance in ToE of the claim of random mutations is to assert that it is an unguided process; that life is not designed, and that is indeed what some prominent evos have stated.
But it's wrong. Just because there is a random factor, perhaps and maybe not, that doesn't mean that the overall process is unguided. Keep in mind I am not saying that I think mutations can even create macroevolution, but just getting into the claim of random mutations in general.
Granted, our die could be guided - perhaps by Fortuna. Still, as far as us mortals go, it is not possible to predict what mutation will happen next.
Of course, I have problems with evolutionary models as I don't think they match the facts.
That was an interesting divergence, basically explaining the rationale behind your beliefs. I know your position regarding an IDer and your view on evolution. To reiterate my position with regards to the subtopic:
I think what evos are saying is that we are unable to predict what mutation will happen when. The order that the mutations happen in can be important. Thus, we cannot predict what will happen even if we can guess at the frequencies of certain mutations.

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randman 
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Message 174 of 310 (286744)
02-15-2006 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
02-15-2006 1:45 AM


Re: Final definition
Watson and Wilson's idea of randomness seems to mean actions not controlled by any outside force. But if the pattern can be predicted based on the principles existing in the physical universe such as chemical properties, then those properties are an outside force exerting control and direction, to a degree, of those mutations, and unless one can reasonably rule out that there is an Intelligent Cause to the origin of the universe, then it seems ludicrous to insist that life arose through an undirected, random process.
To illustrate this idea. Think of a card counter in Vegas. He can beat the house if not caught because the cards are predicatable even if random per hand. There is a control that governs what is likely to occur. So he uses a "random process" to get a particular result because the entire process is not random at all, but very predictable.
In terms of mutations, the entire process is clearly not so random as evos have suggested, and in fact, may not even be random at all since we really have no way to know, as far as science, what the Intelligent Cause of the universe planned and knew about evolution, except that it is logical to consider that an Intelligence that advanced could predict what would occur with considerable accuracy, and perhaps even governs what occurs moment to moment.
The idea that just because there is a seeming random aspect from our perspective, that the whole process is random is a fallacy asserted by evos.

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 175 of 310 (286746)
02-15-2006 1:57 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Modulous
02-15-2006 1:51 AM


Re: random?
Still, as far as us mortals go, it is not possible to predict what mutation will happen next.
Are you sure? I would think that we could under certain conditions predict with a high degree of accuracy the mutations that will occur in certain situations, and with more knowledge, we should be able to predict with even more accuracy.
But let's say we have complete knowledge of how genes work, the exact conditions, etc,...are you saying even then we could not predict the mutations would occur under certain sequences under certain conditions?
If random is based on our mere lack of knowledge, then it is not inherently random, but random more describes our perspective than an absolute quality.
This message has been edited by randman, 02-15-2006 02:00 AM

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mark24
Member (Idle past 5224 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 176 of 310 (286758)
02-15-2006 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by randman
02-15-2006 1:57 AM


Re: random?
randman,
If random is based on our mere lack of knowledge, then it is not inherently random, but random more describes our perspective than an absolute quality.
Why do beneficial mutations happen in tiny fractions in bacteria that exist under exactly the same conditions if the mutation is non-random, then? If it were non-random we would see all or most of the bacteria get the same mutation, but we don't.
Are you sure? I would think that we could under certain conditions predict with a high degree of accuracy the mutations that will occur in certain situations, and with more knowledge, we should be able to predict with even more accuracy.
But let's say we have complete knowledge of how genes work, the exact conditions, etc,...are you saying even then we could not predict the mutations would occur under certain sequences under certain conditions?
Ad hoc
Mark
This message has been edited by mark24, 02-15-2006 04:01 AM

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3672 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 177 of 310 (286766)
02-15-2006 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by randman
02-15-2006 1:56 AM


Re: Final definition
In terms of mutations, the entire process is clearly not so random as evos have suggested, and in fact, may not even be random at all since we really have no way to know, as far as science, what the Intelligent Cause of the universe planned and knew about evolution, except that it is logical to consider that an Intelligence that advanced could predict what would occur with considerable accuracy, and perhaps even governs what occurs moment to moment.
Hey Randman, welcome to Theistic Evolution
But just because there is a pattern to the randomness does not prove that there is an intelligence behind it. Some of us merely believe it. Patterns of incredible depth and complexity are commonplace in both mathematics and nature, and have totally understood and naturalistic origins.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 178 of 310 (286811)
02-15-2006 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by randman
02-15-2006 1:56 AM


Re: Final definition
To illustrate this idea. Think of a card counter in Vegas. He can beat the house if not caught because the cards are predicatable even if random per hand. There is a control that governs what is likely to occur. So he uses a "random process" to get a particular result because the entire process is not random at all, but very predictable.
You are misusing "random".
Suppose I toss a coin. The result is random, with equal probabilities for heads or tails.
Now suppose that I toss a coin 100 times, and count how many times the coin showed heads. It is predictable that the answer won't be too far from 50. But it is still random, even though predictable. The outcomes are no longer equi-probable. Instead, they follow the binomial probability distribution.
You are confusing "random" with "equi-probable". They are not the same thing at all.
You might find it interesting to google "monte carlo methods".

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Percy
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Posts: 22504
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 179 of 310 (286813)
02-15-2006 9:24 AM


Since I last posted it looks like what Nosy feared has come to pass. The discussion has passed from information to randomness.
I'd still like to see an answer to the questions that were being asked earlier in the thread about how one assessses specified complexity, particularly how it is quantified. I posted this back in Message 98:
Imagine a population of organisms where a certain gene has eight different alleles. The amount of information for this gene is log28=3.
Now imagine that one of the newly born organisms possesses a mutation at this gene location that is different from the other 8 alleles, yielding a total of 9 alleles within the population, so the total information is now log29=3.12. Since 3.12>3, information in the population has increased.
In terms of specified complexity, how would you go through the same process of assessing whether new information has been created?
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 180 of 310 (286840)
02-15-2006 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Percy
02-15-2006 9:24 AM


SUSPENSION WARNING! No further discussion of randomness
I'm going to be less gentle than Percy.
If anyone continues the discussion of randomness they will be suspended for a short while.

This message is a reply to:
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