Return Capital Punishment - ReCaP

David Fraser, who worked for the UK Probation Service for 26 years, says the service is perverted by foolish ideology that upholds the right of criminals over those of victims. Each week, someone is raped or murdered by an offender supposedly under supervision. Mr Fraser maintains ”that if criminals are in prison, they cannot commit crimes.’But crimes are committed daily by inmates. Prison populations in the UK and the USA are growing. Informed opinion favours building more prisons. No one seems overly concerned about construction and manning costs, let alone the pain to taxpayers who would foot the bills whilst continuing to suffer at the hands of criminals.Few people have the stomach to bite the bullet and accept the one solution which is most vehemently denied. Capital punishment is the only sensible means to combat the plague of lawlessness.It is my considered opinion that any person who consciously decides to commit a capital crime and in the due process of law is found guilty by a jury, should be given one of two options by the courts; 1) spend the rest of their natural life in prison without parole, or 2) be released from custody on the understanding that if they re-offend they will forfeit all rights of appeal and be put to death.I further believe that the unacceptable rise in serious crimes by all age groups, particularly by children and young people, is a conscious display of contempt for societies that fail to lay down strict parameters for their behaviour and for their own safety. Who can respect any authority that refuses to enforce lawful discipline for the benefit of all members of society?We are at war with terrorists. Why do we tolerate terror in classrooms? Why do we deny rapists and murderers the end they desire.Edited by Malachi-II, : Test

I’m puzzled as to why you mentioned scientific methods and those used by evangelical scholars in arriving at truth when discussing capital punishment. Kindly explain. You go on to say that it is inevitable that capital punishment will lead to state sponsored murder of innocent people. That argument has been tirelessly rehearsed for years.I would remind you, and others who raise the same question, that science has provided an infallible (?) safeguard against innocent people being found guilty of murder through DNA. If there is no conclusive DNA evidence to convict, then no conviction can be safe.It might help if I state that I am a US citizen, born and raised in the S.F. Bay Area. My father was born in Illinois. I have lived in the UK for many years and have a reasonable knowledge of international affairs. Having lived abroad and visited many countries I consider myself to possess a healthy objectivity about national governments, their domestic and foreign policies, and social mores.Tell me, the people on death row who were found innocent, were they duly released? Or are they still incarcerated? Your answer to my question will reveal to us both how much influence improved education and job opportunities will bear on world-wide penal systems.

You have not taken into account the punishment that a convicted murderer may well suffer in his or her community. Do you think they would have an easy escape? I doubt it. I should have said in my original message, ”if they re-offend a capital crime. . .’ Far too many murderers in the UK have recommitted capital crimes after early release from prison. Prisons do NOT rehabilitate people. More than 20,000 crimes per month are committed in the UK by people who have been through the prison system.Do you have any comparable figures for people who have served prison terms in the US?

The danger of an innocent person being executed has 99% (if not 100%) been removed with the benefit of DNA.I am more comfortable with people who are prepared to make and act on difficult decisions for the protection of citizens who wish to go about their lawful activities in the land of the free and the home of the brave. Incidentally, I am a US citizen and have every right to speak as oneEdited by Malachi-II, : Testing image

If what you have said is true, and I have no reason to doubt your remark, then our so-called 'civilized societies' seem truly lost in terms of upward and uplifting evolution.Yes, I was and still am naive enough to believe that our species have evolved for purposes far above and beyond the material aspects of life as still perceived by the large majority of our species. I still, despite evidence to the contrary, believe and trust in the idea that we have evolved as near to the image of whatever Gods we worship, or otherwise, as any other creatures. The most depressing (personal) realization is of our deliberate failure to recognize and accept that we are children of a divine creator and were destined to perpetuate growth through compassionate love that few of our species seems to understand.I remarked in an earlier message that I believe we are determined to consume anything and everything available in our complete ignorance of the greatness that is waiting, and wanting.May I say, regarding my thoughts about capital punishment, that I firmly believe it would be more humane, moral, and kind to put to death those human beings who are filled with so much hate for others that they feel an urge to KILL. It would be compassionate and kind to end such destitute lives. I can say that because I am sure that life does not end in mortal death. I am convinced that a loving God (Creator) is far more capable of dealing with lost souls than we are in our present miserable state of stagnation.Thank you for your thoughtful references to case reports.

You are absolutely right, of course. I introduced a subject that, as most people know, is highly emotive, controversial, politically charged and socially repugnant. It would take volumes to properly address the subject. I merely touched the surface. The motive for introducing the subject was primarily to draw attention to the injustices and corruption that is rampant in all so-called civilized societies. Evidence in support of my last sentence is painfully obvious to anyone with guts enough to see it. I will go further and suggest that most of us lack the guts or the will to reverse the decline of our glorious species.The few responses my original message has received seem to confirm my deep pessimism. In short, I think we've blown it.

I waited 11 days for someone to reply to my opening salvo and at least three people repeated the boring mantra about ”playing God’. How dare anyone play God!! Roughly half the people on this enlightened forum deny God’s existence and the other half launch into their act of being outraged that anyone should PLAY God.I address this paragraph to those who read the Bible. Genesis 26 (okay?) “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . . . .” Now, what do you make of that? Question 1: If Moses wrote Genesis, is he saying that we were created in the physical image of God, or is he saying we were created in the spiritual image of God? Okay? Question 2: Same verse, who are the “Us” that made man in their image? Was there more than one God? Question 3: If we were made in the image of the Creator doesn’t that, by definition, form kind of a close link in us? Like, uh, aren’t we sort of related to God somewhere along the line? Or are you stuck in the image of being “Born in sin!”? Are you sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, those tearaways who disobeyed God and dined on fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Who are You?This paragraph is addressed to those who do not believe in God, or any other divine being. What moral - as opposed to judicial - laws do you abide by? If you are a Libertarian and hold that all humans have free will. Do you also believe that a person who exercises their free will to take the life of their victim should rot in a cell? Or does a just society have the right to exercise free will and take the life of the offender? Or do you believe that free will should be limited? Another question: Do you think that free will carries any moral responsibility on the part of those who exercise free will? If so, how far should that moral responsibility extend? Does it stop at invading another nation and killing innocent civilians who just happen to get in the way of aerial bombardment? Or is that okay because a nation’s leader says so?This next paragraph is addressed to all concerned. I have hinted at what I now declare to be a serious notion - I cannot (yet) positively make it a statement of fact. We are all created in the image of a divine entity (God, if you like) and we are supposed to have become aware of this birthright in the course of millions of years in our evolutionary process. It was intended that we continue the evolutionary process in further developing our understanding of and relationship with our divine Creator.If believers and non-believers carefully read the last three verses of Genesis - with an open mind, please. You will be aware that God saw all that He made was good, including the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil!! Okay? Now, what do you think that meant? I think it symbolized the birth of conscious reason from instinctive responses in our emerging species. Was that not a clear demonstration of Our likeness with God? I mean, we have the divine will to make choices. We are free to choose to do what is right or what is not right. Okay? Now for the crunch: Are we, or are we not, obliged to BE as Gods when called upon to deal justly with those who commit heinous crimes against innocent children of our Father? Or will we continue to pass the buck?Edited by Malachi-II, : Withdrew the offensive (Yawn) with apologies.

I waited 11 days for someone to reply to my opening salvo and at least three people repeated the boring mantra about ”playing God’. How dare anyone play God!! Roughly half the people on this enlightened forum deny God’s existence and the other half launch into their act of being outraged that anyone should PLAY God.I address this paragraph to those who read the Bible. Genesis 26 (okay?) “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . . . .” Now, what do you make of that? Question 1: If Moses wrote Genesis, is he saying that we were created in the physical image of God, or is he saying we were created in the spiritual image of God? Okay? Question 2: Same verse, who are the “Us” that made man in their image? Was there more than one God? Question 3: If we were made in the image of the Creator doesn’t that, by definition, form kind of a close link in us? Like, uh, aren’t we sort of related to God somewhere along the line? Or are you stuck in the image of being “Born in sin!”? Are you sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, those tearaways who disobeyed God and dined on fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Who are You?This paragraph is addressed to those who do not believe in God, or any other divine being. What moral - as opposed to judicial - laws do you abide by? If you are a Libertarian and hold that all humans have free will. Do you also believe that a person who exercises their free will to take the life of their victim should rot in a cell? Or does a just society have the right to exercise free will and take the life of the offender? Or do you believe that free will should be limited? Another question: Do you think that free will carries any moral responsibility on the part of those who exercise free will? If so, how far should that moral responsibility extend? Does it stop at invading another nation and killing innocent civilians who just happen to get in the way of aerial bombardment? Or is that okay because a nation’s leader says so?This next paragraph is addressed to all concerned. I have hinted at what I now declare to be a serious notion - I cannot (yet) positively make it a statement of fact. We are all created in the image of a divine entity (God, if you like) and we are supposed to have become aware of this birthright in the course of millions of years in our evolutionary process. It was intended that we continue the evolutionary process in further developing our understanding of and relationship with our divine Creator.If believers and non-believers carefully read the last three verses of Genesis - with an open mind, please. You will be aware that God saw all that He made was good, including the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil!! Okay? Now, what do you think that meant? I think it symbolized the birth of conscious reason from instinctive responses in our emerging species. Was that not a clear demonstration of Our likeness with God? I mean, we have the divine will to make choices. We are free to choose to do what is right or what is not right. Okay? Now for the crunch: Are we, or are we not, obliged to BE as Gods when called upon to deal justly with those who commit heinous crimes against innocent children of our Father? Or will we continue to pass the buck?Edited by Malachi-II, : No reason given.

AdminNosy: I'm not smart enough to see how this is connected to the topic. No one is to reply to this. I waited 11 days for someone to reply to my opening salvo and at least three people repeated the boring mantra about ”playing God’. How dare anyone play God!! Roughly half the people on this enlightened forum deny God’s existence and the other half launch into their act of being outraged that anyone should PLAY God.I address this paragraph to those who read the Bible. Genesis 26 (okay?) “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness . . . .” Now, what do you make of that? Question 1: If Moses wrote Genesis, is he saying that we were created in the physical image of God, or is he saying we were created in the spiritual image of God? Okay? Question 2: Same verse, who are the “Us” that made man in their image? Was there more than one God? Question 3: If we were made in the image of the Creator doesn’t that, by definition, form kind of a close link in us? Like, uh, aren’t we sort of related to God somewhere along the line? Or are you stuck in the image of being “Born in sin!”? Are you sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, those tearaways who disobeyed God and dined on fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Who are You?This paragraph is addressed to those who do not believe in God, or any other divine being. What moral - as opposed to judicial - laws do you abide by? If you are a Libertarian and hold that all humans have free will. Do you also believe that a person who exercises their free will to take the life of their victim should rot in a cell? Or does a just society have the right to exercise free will and take the life of the offender? Or do you believe that free will should be limited? Another question: Do you think that free will carries any moral responsibility on the part of those who exercise free will? If so, how far should that moral responsibility extend? Does it stop at invading another nation and killing innocent civilians who just happen to get in the way of aerial bombardment? Or is that okay because a nation’s leader says so?This next paragraph is addressed to all concerned. I have hinted at what I now declare to be a serious notion - I cannot (yet) positively make it a statement of fact. We are all created in the image of a divine entity (God, if you like) and we are supposed to have become aware of this birthright in the course of millions of years in our evolutionary process. It was intended that we continue the evolutionary process in further developing our understanding of and relationship with our divine Creator.If believers and non-believers carefully read the last three verses of Genesis - with an open mind, please. You will be aware that God saw all that He made was good, including the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil!! Okay? Now, what do you think that meant? I think it symbolized the birth of conscious reason from instinctive responses in our emerging species. Was that not a clear demonstration of Our likeness with God? I mean, we have the divine will to make choices. We are free to choose to do what is right or what is not right. Okay? Now for the crunch: Are we, or are we not, obliged to BE as Gods when called upon to deal justly with those who commit heinous crimes against innocent children of our Father? Or will we continue to pass the buck?Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.Edited by Malachi-II, : Withdrew the offensive (Yawn) with apologies

I keep asking specific questions of people who seem to respond in similar ways, i.e. none of my questions receive answers. It appears that my questions are ignored. In response I am often preached at. Is that what is called a debate?I cut and pasted the same message to three people because, in my view, it dealt with main issues of possible interest to each person.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to first answer the specific questions I put to you.

I'm sorry? Apart from your reference to the case of House vs Bell I am not able to follow you. Will you please explain what you are meaning. It must be my fault for misunderstanding your choice of words.

Hello AdminNosy,If you would re-examine the message you might realize it contains a core issue to the debate about capital punishment. I'm sorry if you are not smart enough to see the link, but is that good reason to deny those who are???

Iano, the above message was addressed to AdminNosy and was not intended for you. If you please, I would like to respond to the question you put to me regarding 'innocent' according to the Bible. As I'm sure you know, there are many references to innocent. But I think Exodus 23:7 expresses my understanding.I consider those who have not yet been corrupted by society to be innocent. They are the children and the youth who have not as yet had their natural purity defiled by the world.What I wish to say is that all citizens in free societies have personal responsibility to protect those innocents from the evil that has gained such dominance. Part of our responsibility is to ensure that we have priests , holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens (Hebrews 7:26). If those potential priests are newly born children, then we should do more to protect their innocence so that they might lead the rest of us sinners back to a semblance of grace. Not an easy task, but it was not easy for us to digress to where we are now.This may sound idealistic and unrealistic. So be it. What else can we hope for when we give more rights to murderers and rapists of children than we do to the innocent children in our care? Why, I ask anyone who will listen, do we give more compassion to the guilty than to the innocent? Why do we, as voters, allow corrupt officials to misuse and abuse just laws to convict and duly punish the evil in our midst?

Thank you for explaining. But that, as you know, is beyond our capability. I presume from your comment that you do not believe in life after death. Nor, I presume, do you believe in a loving God. If that is the case, please tell me what life on this planet is worth if hardened criminals are kept alive to suffer til death in prisons that enforce cruelty and inhuman treatment?I know someone who spent five years in prison and is convinced that there were inmates who were like vicious animals and should never be allowed to rejoin society. Does it make you and others feel better that they are kept alive? Do you believe they can be rehabilitated? Would you like to have a go at rehabilatating them? Have you some personal acqaintance with people who denounced their humanity? Would you leave them alone with your wife and children?