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Author Topic:   Plate tectonics, mountain building, and the Flood
Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 94 of 159 (30354)
01-27-2003 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by LRP
01-27-2003 3:58 PM


LRP writes:
So far nothing we know about the Earth or other planets is contrary to what could have been predicted by my analysis.
Theories are built on evidence, not on lack of contrary evidence. Not only have you offered no positive evidence, much evidence to the contrary exists.
In the end it really is a choice between the word of man and the word of God. And we each choose whatever makes more sense to us.
First, God's word is captured far better in the earth and skies than in man's meager attempt called the Bible. To which record of God's word are you going to give the greater weight?
Second, in the world of science you choose the view best supported by evidence. Your ideas are comprised primarily of scenarios for which you yourself are apparently unaware of all the contrary evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by LRP, posted 01-27-2003 3:58 PM LRP has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 144 of 159 (31327)
02-04-2003 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by LRP
02-04-2003 2:19 PM


LRP writes:
It seems to me you favour the idea of the elements having been created billions of years ago in millions of supernovas and somehow got accumulated in just the right order and amount in the solar Nebula to enable it to form planets. Very airy fairy. But if thats the theory you prefer so be it. It does not make any sense to me.
What is it about current theory that doesn't make sense to you?
You say that the elements could not have formed according to my theory. I say they have.
What is your evidence that our sun was once part of a binary system?
So it's really a choice between theories.
When choosing between competing theories one needs to be aware of the evidence supporting each. I'm aware of the evidence for current theory, but not for yours, though I did see some errors. For example, in Message 136 you said:
We have here on Earth something like a hundred different elements. We know they could not have been created on the Earth and they are also unlikely to have been created by supernova explosions on distant stars bearing in mind the nearest star to us is some 4 light years away.
Given that the universe is around 14 billion years old, and given that the sun and solar system are only about 5 billion years old, there was about 9 billion years of time available for material to travel from distant supernovas to here.
Only the elements up through iron (Fe) can be produced within normal stellar processes. Heavier elements can be produced in novas, and even heavier elements in supernovas. Our solar system includes elements that require a supernova to produce them. Since your theory postulates a binary system, let's only consider Type 1 supernova, which are produced in binary systems consisting of a white dwarf and a star very much like our own sun. Once enough material is pulled from the sun-like star to the white dwarf a runaway nuclear reaction takes place resulting in the enormous explosion we call a supernova. The star-like sun may possibly survive, but only as a dense core. The remnants of a supernova bear no resemblance to our sun.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by LRP, posted 02-04-2003 2:19 PM LRP has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 146 of 159 (31398)
02-05-2003 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by lpetrich
02-04-2003 9:51 PM


Ipetrich writes:
Actually, it's only the r-process and p-process that operate in stellar explosions and the like; the s-process operates in the interiors of red giants, and produces much of the elements heavier than iron.
True, but perhaps only half of the elements heavier than iron, and only up to Bismuth. Red giants where the s-process takes place produce a specific spectrum of heavy elements, one which our sun does not possess. But certainly red giants contributed to the material from which our solar system formed.
But the important point I was trying to make was that supernovas are required to produce a good number of the elements found in our solar system, and since quite obviously a supernova has never taken place here, nor was there ever a red giant here, the heavy elements in our solar system came from elsewhere in the universe.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by lpetrich, posted 02-04-2003 9:51 PM lpetrich has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 155 of 159 (31787)
02-09-2003 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by LRP
02-09-2003 4:10 AM


LRP writes:
PERCIPIENT favours the theory that over billions of years explosive events in stars would have produced all the material for our Solar System. This theory is without any real evidence since no one has been able to observe debris from an exploding star being absorbed into anything like a Solar Nebula and exactly what goes on within the depths of a star is also speculative as astrophysicists will themselves admit.
Science is not limited to the study of that which can be directly observed. It is not direct vs. indirect that is key, but whether there is an established chain of causation from the event itself to the human observable expression of that event.
We understand the processes taking place in the interior of stars very well, and astrophysicists would not deem this understanding "speculative" as you have claimed.
Any particle that has a high enough velocity to escape the gravity of the exploding star will be diffused evenly into the emptiness of space and not accumulate in one location.
Well, of course. Nova and supernova are occurring everywhere throughout the universe, and the ejected material becomes randomly distributed throughout space. In some places it eventually condenses into gas clouds called nebula.
If in the unlikely event that such material did somehow form a nebula it would be one that would be cold, and devoid of the higher elements.
Such nebula would consist of all material scattered into the void by nova and supernova, and that includes the heavy elements.
The nebula from which our Solar System was formed could not have been just a random accumulation of ejected material. The nebula had to have rotation about a high mass pivotal body. It also had to have all the elements sorted out into useful concentrations-not all mixed together. There is no reason or evidence that random supernovas can produce such a nebula of the sort that led to the formation of our solar system.
On the contrary, such nebula condense from the material available in space, and that includes the heavy material contributed by nova and supernova.
I don't know if your rotational requirements for nebula are correct, but the requirements will be similar whether for a solar system like ours or a binary system such as you postulate.
Differentiation, what you called "sorting", occurs by the simple laws of physics once sufficient condensation takes place for gravitational effects to become significant.
Our solar system includes elements that require a supernova to produce them. Your theory postulates a binary system, so we can only consider the Type 1 supernova, produced in binary systems consisting of a white dwarf and a star very much like our own sun. The dwarf pulls in material from the star and eventually explodes into a supernova, either blasting away the star completely or leaving only a dense core. Our solar system bears no resemblance to this.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by LRP, posted 02-09-2003 4:10 AM LRP has not replied

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