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Author Topic:   Objection to subtitle of this forum
John
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 11 (32551)
02-18-2003 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by truthlover
02-18-2003 1:37 AM


quote:
What if the Bible contains messages from God and a lot of scientific errors--and plain ol' contradictions--because God speaks through men and he's not really interested in correcting their academic education in order to teach through them? Then it's not the inerrant Word of God, but neither is it just the very much errant words of men.
If you already believe that the Bible is the word of God, I suppose this makes sense. But how do you know that the Bible is the word of God? That is the question. Looking for inaccuracy is an attempt to answer that question. The Bible is just a book like any other unless it contains something to make it stand out. Good science would make it stand out. So would accurate history. But it has neither.
You may assume that God is just teaching people via parable, analogy and metaphor, but that is nothing but assumption and isn't terribly convincing. And could be considered circular as well.
I am not particularly opposed to this reading of the Bible, btw. Except that I tend to consider pretty much every work of religion in the same vein-- as a snapshot of human psychology, and as such valuable.
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by truthlover, posted 02-18-2003 1:37 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by truthlover, posted 02-18-2003 12:51 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 11 (32575)
02-18-2003 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by truthlover
02-18-2003 12:51 PM


quote:
I believe in the God of Israel and I believe that Yeshua is his Son.
The question I have to ask is "Why?" Or, how can you be sure given that the evidence comes via fallible humans?
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by truthlover, posted 02-18-2003 12:51 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by truthlover, posted 02-18-2003 8:03 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 11 (32655)
02-19-2003 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by truthlover
02-18-2003 8:03 PM


quote:
Hey, is there a method to this quote thing everybody does
Yes indeed, there is. While in a 'reply to' window, look to the left and you will see a link that should read "UBB Code is ON" Click that link and you'll find instructions for using the formatted quotes.
quote:
The fallible human I have to worry about is me, not the Bible writers.
But if you consider the Bible to have some sort of authority, then you do need to worry about the fallible people who wrote it. Perhaps you believe that God communicates more directly?
quote:
I believe in history.
'k. ???
quote:
I think it's about as far-fetched to say that Yeshua never existed
I didn't suggest that this was the case. If I may make an observation... You have a bad habit of trying to guess and pre-emptively respond to people's 'agendas'.
quote:
I guess it was the testimony of those who knew him that moved me most.
What testimonies? If you believe history, surely you believe the historical fact that none of the Gospels were written by people who knew Christ.
quote:
Some of the prophecies moved me, too, most notably the description of a crucifixion in Psalm 22
What crucifixion? There is nothing in that Psalm that suggests death on a cross.
As for it being a prophecy, it is fuzzy enough as to be meaningless. Not to mention that the Psalms would have been know to the writers of the NT, and to everyone else in the early church. The only real tie to the crucifixion story is the passage about casting lots for Christ's clothing and writing that in would be no hard trick. I am sure you will complain, but this is the same logic you would use if evaluating a modern day psychic's predictions or Nostradamus or Edgar Casey...
quote:
The result was absolutely overwhelming. Some would say, I guess, that I was just having a psychological experience.
Well, yes.
Other people have the same experience with other Gods and religions. How does this prove anything? Or, perhaps a better question, do you accept these as valid spiritual experiences as well?
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by truthlover, posted 02-18-2003 8:03 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by truthlover, posted 02-19-2003 7:42 PM John has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 11 (32712)
02-19-2003 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by truthlover
02-19-2003 7:42 PM


quote:
No, I don't believe that at all, and while I'm no expert on that issue, I seriously doubt anyone could know that.
You'll be hard pressed to find a scholar who claims differently.
Take for instance, the Gospel of Mark.
The idea that Mark wrote a gospel is attested by Papias, early in the second century; he says that Mark never encountered Jesus but later became the disciple and ‘interpreter’ of Peter. On the basis of Peter’s teaching about the words and deeds of Jesus, he drew up an account which was accurate but not ‘in order’ (Eusebius, H.E. 3, 39, 15).
Page not found – Religion Online
Or:
Mark is the author of the Gospel According to Mark, the second Gospel in the New Testament, but the earliest. He wrote his Gospel in Rome, accurately recording the testimonies of the apostle Peter and other eyewitnesses to Jesus Christ's life. According to Papias and Saint Clement of Alexandria, Mark wrote his Gospel at the request of the Roman Christians around AD 49.
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/7730/Christian_martyrs/Mark.html
Mark is the earliest Gospel and was written sometime around 70 AD, though the above gives an earlier date.
While there is disagreement about where Mark wrote, there is a consensus about when he wrote: he probably composed his work in or about the year 70 CE, after the failure of the First Jewish Revolt and the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple at the hands of the Romans.
The Story Of The Storytellers - The Gospel Of Mark | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS
This is 40 years after the death of Christ, give or take. Thirty-five or forty-five years was a decently long lifespan at the time, so you have a full generation passing between the death on the cross and the writing of Mark. Where is the fantasy in this? The other Gospels were composed even later, Matthew and Luke both drawing from Mark.
quote:
I've read lots of suggestions that maybe the Gospels are late enough that none of their writers met Christ, but I've never seen anyone say they knew.
Many biblical authors are unknown. Where an author has been named, that name has sometimes been selected by pious believers rather than given by the author himself. The four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are examples of books which did not carry the names of their actual authors. The present names were assigned long after these four books were written. In spite of what the Gospel authors say, biblical scholars are now almost unanimously agreed that none of the Gospel authors was either a disciple of Jesus or an eyewitness to his ministry.
Page not found » Internet Infidels
This information is not hard to come by and there is no real contraversy among biblical scholars.
quote:
I think it's a great habit. Gets to the point, which you do not.
No, it doesn't. It just makes you look like you have an itchy trigger finger.
What is the point you think I have not made? There you go again, seeing agenda around every corner. Sad...
quote:
You just make a bunch of unfounded statements, defend none of them, make no points, get off the subject of the thread, so, yeah, I'm trying to waste a little less of my time with you.
Why is it that a few simple questions triggers such hostility? Where does it come from?
Unfounded statements? Nope, quite well founded, maybe that is what lit the fuse.
Defend none of them? Well, one has to start somewhere. I don't know what you will dispute and what you won't. Guess I could just jump the gun, guess your agenda and start swinging, but why?
Make no points? Funny, you responded to some points I didn't make.
Get off the subject? Even more funny. Seems we've been discussing biblical accuracy and it is a concern.
quote:
By the way, I can't imagine there's too many people who care whether you see a reference to the crucifixion in Psalm 22. I'm certainly not one of them. Thanks for bringing it up, though.
Ah... more hostility-- the sweet sweet smell of christianity.
You seem to feel it was important enough to bring up Psalm 22. I read it and I commented. Is that not how a discussion works?
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No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by truthlover, posted 02-19-2003 7:42 PM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by truthlover, posted 02-20-2003 7:09 PM John has not replied

  
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