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Author Topic:   Is Science the Search for Objective Truth in an Objective Reality
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 49 of 64 (368552)
12-08-2006 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by New Cat's Eye
12-08-2006 4:24 PM


Dark Matter
No dark matter is not supernatural. It is unknown. There is an important difference.
The unknown is exactly that. As yet unexplained physical phenomenon for which there is no reason to think that a scientific answer cannot be found (in the case of dark matter either the nature of the matter in question or a proper physical refutation of it's existence at all)
Supernatural phenomemnon are those that supposedly CANNOT by their very nature be investigated scientifically for whatever reason (I have never heard anyone give a valid reason).
In my view any phenomenon that has an effect on the physical world whether it be supernatural creators, ghosts, astrological prediction or whatever else can be studied scientifically even if the results lead to as yet unknown branches of science (unlikely but possible I suppose)

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 53 of 64 (371803)
12-23-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
12-11-2006 3:40 PM


Re: Models
But I'm not convinced that there's any difference between "understanding" and "being able to make accurate predictions." If you're making accurate predictions, in what sense do you not "understand" something?
Evolution by natural selection is considered one of the most accomplished, elegant and far reaching scientific theories ever formulated.
Testable predictions have been made but the success of the theory is based far more on it's explanatory powers and the deep understanding that these provide.
In your opinion is this theory considered so successful because it allows us to make ever more accurate predictions or because we feel that it has given us deep insight into a fundamental truth of nature and our own origins?
In your opinion is evolution by natural selection a simulation/model or an objective scientific and historical truth?

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 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2006 3:40 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 54 of 64 (371806)
12-23-2006 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by New Cat's Eye
12-11-2006 3:27 PM


Re: Objective Reality
Oh I agree that the objective reality is out there, I just don’t think it is necessary to assume it in order for science to work.
Well that very much depends on what you think the aims of science are and therefore what is considered science "working". If it is merely to derive laws that consistently predict physical phenomenon then it sounds like we would both agree that consistency of "reality" objective or otherwise is all that is required. But is the ultimate aim of science prediction and control? See post above in response to Crashfrog regarding natural selection as an example of a theory that has limited useful predictive power but which is valued greatly for the insight it provideds.
If the aim of science is to provide a deeper understanding of nature then the aims of science, and therefore I would argue it's methods, would be very different if a non objective reality were to be assumed.
The ultimate questions of science would not ralate to the origin of life, the universe, matter etc. as they do now. Instead the ultimate questions of science would relate to the nature of the consciousness in whose subjective grasp we exist.
Don't get me wrong - I am not claiming that we can scientifically know whether this is the case or not. Or even that it matters from a purely technological advancement point of view.
I am just saying that implicit in the aims and methods of science is an assumption that we are operating in an objective reality and that this implicit assumption is necessary for science to operate as we understand it.
I would argue it as a sort of "axiom of science" if you like. An embedded assumption that there is an objective reality and that this is necessary for the nature of scientific investigation as we know it to follow.
So is science the search for objective truth in an objective reality?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 56 of 64 (374332)
01-04-2007 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Casey Powell
01-03-2007 6:19 PM


Re: Thats Philosophy, not Science
Well it is philosophy of science.
As much of this forum is dedictaed to debating what is, and what is not, science it seemed a worthwhile topic and one that I am interested in knowing the views of others on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Casey Powell, posted 01-03-2007 6:19 PM Casey Powell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Casey Powell, posted 01-04-2007 10:49 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 58 of 64 (374364)
01-04-2007 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Casey Powell
01-04-2007 10:49 AM


Re: Thats Philosophy, not Science
You seem to use the term "mutually exclusive" a lot when it is not necessarily warranted.
There is a whole branch of philosophy dedicated to the exact nature of scientific investigation. It is called the philosophy of science.
I would disagree fundamentally with your division of science and philosophy but even if, for the sake of argument, we assume that you are correct in asserting -
Philosophy covers A Priori knowledge, while Science covered A Posteriori knowledge
This in no way results in the conclusion that the nature of scientific investigation can not be considered philosophically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Casey Powell, posted 01-04-2007 10:49 AM Casey Powell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Casey Powell, posted 01-04-2007 12:13 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 60 of 64 (374394)
01-04-2007 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Casey Powell
01-04-2007 12:13 PM


Re: Thats Philosophy, not Science
The question - What is science?
Can be considered philosophically in the same way that the question
What is art? can be considered philosophically.
The nature of the subject in question is irrelevent to the philosophical questions that relate to the nature and meaning of the human pursuit under consideration.
The very question as to whether science (or any other endevour) is A Priori or A Posteriori (or a combination of the two) is a philosophical one.
Whatever the resulting conclusion of this philosophical investigation may be
There is nothing mutually exclusive about it.
If not philosophy what do you consider the question -
What is the nature of scientific investigation?
to be?
"Do we discover or invent mathematics"? - Is a philosphical question regardless of the answer. But the answer will suggest mathematics to have an A Priori or A Posteriori nature depending which point of view is taken.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Casey Powell, posted 01-04-2007 12:13 PM Casey Powell has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Casey Powell, posted 01-04-2007 12:58 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 62 by Casey Powell, posted 01-04-2007 1:00 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 63 of 64 (375822)
01-10-2007 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Casey Powell
01-04-2007 12:58 PM


Re: Thats Philosophy, not Science
No art is not philosophy. I never said it was.......
Nor is science.
We can both agree on that (hopefully)
However questions relating to the human pursuits that we call art and science and the nature of these endevours are philosophical questions REGARDLESS of the conclusions we come to about the nature of these pursuits.
This thread is about the nature of science. The philosophy of science if you like.
No matter how fancilly you word your responses simply stating that science is not philosophy and that there can be no philosophy of science because of this is just daft.

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 Message 61 by Casey Powell, posted 01-04-2007 12:58 PM Casey Powell has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 64 of 64 (375823)
01-10-2007 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Casey Powell
01-04-2007 1:00 PM


Re: Thats Philosophy, not Science
I see you have been banned for your overly aggressive rants elsewhere anyway.
Oh well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Casey Powell, posted 01-04-2007 1:00 PM Casey Powell has not replied

  
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