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Author Topic:   Bible Study - Understanding Genesis 1 & 2
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5944 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 61 of 83 (371912)
12-24-2006 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by johnfolton
12-23-2006 11:00 PM


The start also.
charley writes:
The reason the earth and the planets rotate as they do around the sun is due to God decorating our night sky with the stars he had made.
This is simply wholly incorrect! The earth and planets rotate around the sun due to a balance gravitational and inertial forces.
charley writes:
The interpreters thought to make it easier to understand thus they added "he made" the stars als. The original text never included "he made" thus no biblical scriptural evidence that the stars were made on the 4th dayo
As our understanding of the universe has increased it is obvious that "[He made] the stars also" is perhaps the greatest understatement of all time! Further those 3 words demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of the scale of the universe.
If the "interpreters" were trying to make it easier to understand they could have put something in there that really demonstrates deep knowledge or understanding.
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fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5550 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 62 of 83 (371914)
12-24-2006 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by johnfolton
12-23-2006 11:00 PM


Re: Biblical Inerrancy (God Breathed)
The reason the earth and the planets rotate as they do around the sun is due to God decorating our night sky with the stars he had made.
Are you saying that you do not believe that gravity keeps the earth rotating around the sun? If you do believe that, in what sense does the stars decorating the night sky come into play here at all?
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 63 of 83 (371918)
12-24-2006 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by johnfolton
12-23-2006 11:00 PM


Re: Biblical Inerrancy (God Breathed)
Charley
The reason the earth and the planets rotate as they do around the sun is due to God decorating our night sky with the stars he had made.
Well the strict definition is orbit not "rotate" but I fail to see how "decorating our night sky with the stars he had made" is the reason for planets to orbit the sun. Could you clarify this?
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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 64 of 83 (371919)
12-24-2006 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by iceage
12-24-2006 12:28 AM


The reason the earth and the planets rotate as they do around the sun is due to God decorating our night sky with the stars he had made.
This is simply wholly incorrect! The earth and planets rotate around the sun due to a balance gravitational and inertial forces.
Genesis chapter 1 says he did this by positioning the earth the sun and the stars in context to the orbit of the earth around the sun.kjv genesis 1:14-19. He uses the bands of forces we call gravity to maintain the orbits. The word says this is why we have the zodiac, why we have days, months, and years, its all in the first chapter of genesis, etc...
The Word says that God is able to loosen or bind even the bands of the stars within our galaxy. kjv job 38:31 We call these forces gravity and the Word infers that God is able to bind or loosen these forces.
It also says that he alone is responsible for spreadeth out the heavens. kjv job 9:8 The universe is expanding the Word says God alone is responsible. The hubble telescope confirms the Word that the universe is expanding. Since God alone is said within his Word is responsible for the spreading out the heavens its saying that he is able to loosen the bands we call gravity.
Jesus Christ is true light of true light and thru him the bands we call gravity were created and are subject unto him. He is able to bind or loosen the forces we call gravity because he is true light of true light begotten not made of the Father.
If the "interpreters" were trying to make it easier to understand they could have put something in there that really demonstrates deep knowledge or understanding.
The Word is God Breathed not mans words but Gods. Its demonstrates a deep knowledge and understanding of the ordain movements of the solar system in respect to the universe.
The interpreters did not mean he created the sun, moon or the stars on the 4th day but that they were made to be as a lamp unto the earth.
Its understood from other passages within the bible that God ordains the movements of all the stars and galaxies. The Word says he alone is responsible for spreading outward of the heavens. Its not by the binding of the forces of gravity but the loosening of the forces of gravity.
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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5621 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 65 of 83 (371923)
12-24-2006 2:02 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by sidelined
12-24-2006 1:38 AM


Re: Biblical Inerrancy (God Breathed)
Well the strict definition is orbit not "rotate" but I fail to see how "decorating our night sky with the stars he had made" is the reason for planets to orbit the sun. Could you clarify this?
It says in the first chapter of genesis that it was so they would be a light unto the earth in the day sky and night sky for signs, for season, years, days. On day 5 he created the creatures that rely upon visible light thus why on Day 4 God maximised the lights to rule in both in the day and in night sky. And the Word said God saw that it was good. kjv genesis 1:18.
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4140 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 66 of 83 (371932)
12-24-2006 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by johnfolton
12-24-2006 1:48 AM


Re:
Genesis chapter 1 says he did this by positioning the earth the sun and the stars in context to the orbit of the earth around the sun.kjv genesis 1:14-19. He uses the bands of forces we call gravity to maintain the orbits. The word says this is why we have the zodiac, why we have days, months, and years, its all in the first chapter of genesis, etc...
where does it say that at? i don't see it unless bronze-age people somehow learned about gravity?
infact the book says the earth was flat and didn't move
t also says that he alone is responsible for spreadeth out the heavens. kjv job 9:8 The universe is expanding the Word says God alone is responsible. The hubble telescope confirms the Word that the universe is expanding. Since God alone is said within his Word is responsible for the spreading out the heavens its saying that he is able to loosen the bands we call gravity.
giving god glory in poetry doesn't really make for much of an argument, of course the author would say god did all that stuff, its god.
Jesus Christ is true light of true light and thru him the bands we call gravity were created and are subject unto him. He is able to bind or loosen the forces we call gravity because he is true light of true light begotten not made of the Father.
jesus didn't exist as a person at the beginning, or at least genesis doesn't say it, and john isn't talking about jesus as a person, but as an idea, a logos
The Word is God Breathed not mans words but Gods. Its demonstrates a deep knowledge and understanding of the ordain movements of the solar system in respect to the universe.
not really, and whats your evidence its "god breathed?" and what does that even mean?
the bible shows nothing of an understanding of the solar system, just the same stuff the early peoples believed, the 5 planets and the moon and the sun, thats why we have a week after all
The interpreters did not mean he created the sun, moon or the stars on the 4th day but that they were made to be as a lamp unto the earth.
he didn't? it says it right there though!
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
looks like it to me, unless you have some other meaning than 'made'
imo, it looks like god made the sun and moon after he made plants and animals, its not chronological at all, its a story
Its understood from other passages within the bible that God ordains the movements of all the stars and galaxies. The Word says he alone is responsible for spreading outward of the heavens. Its not by the binding of the forces of gravity but the loosening of the forces of gravity.
if you have to look to other books in the bible to understand the meaning of one, i'd say theres no meaning at all to any of it.
it means what it says, even to the point of absurdity, because franky, the israelites had no clue about anything anymore than the greeks or egyptians or anyone at that time
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4140 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 67 of 83 (371934)
12-24-2006 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by johnfolton
12-24-2006 2:02 AM


Re: Biblical Inerrancy (God Breathed)
It says in the first chapter of genesis that it was so they would be a light unto the earth in the day sky and night sky for signs, for season, years, days. On day 5 he created the creatures that rely upon visible light thus why on Day 4 God maximised the lights to rule in both in the day and in night sky. And the Word said God saw that it was good. kjv genesis 1:18.
this is what the israelites believed, its not true though, its a retro-active answer to a 'why' question, namely "why are there lights in the sky?" the answer is: god put them there
its a just-so answer, i mean the whole 7 week thing is a just-so answer to the question of why we have a 7 day week, its not the reason why we do
they got it from the assyrians, who got the week from the planets they can see and the moon and sun
why do you think we have the weeks named after planets and the two other objects?
just because?
monday=moonday
tuesday= tiw's day,= uranos
wensday = woden's day = juputer = or zeus
thursday = thor's day = mars or ares
friday = frega's day = venus or aphriditie
saterday = saturn or chronos
sunday = sun's day
the point is people wanted an answer thier god could be used in not someone elses, as the assyians would be a no
Borderline. Any response should tie back to the topic.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 68 of 83 (371945)
12-24-2006 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Dr Adequate
12-23-2006 1:19 PM


Re: And Another True Believer Turns Pyrrhonian Skeptic
You must have been a real blast in history class. And geology, come to that. "The Earth's core is very hot..." --- "You don't know that! You weren't there!" Astronomy --- "It's very cold on Pluto." --- "You've never been, you big fraud!"
And I feel sorry for your Sunday school teacher.
Exaggerating can be a form of lying. Feel sorry for yourself. I called no one a "big fraud".
History is not exactly science. Detecting the tempurature on Pluto today is one matter. Postulating on the tempurature of Pluto 350 million years ago is another.
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 69 of 83 (371946)
12-24-2006 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by jaywill
12-24-2006 8:05 AM


Re: And Another True Believer Turns Pyrrhonian Skeptic
Exagerating is a form of lying.
Sarcasm is not exaggeration, I am not lying, and would you not edit your post after I've quoted it and replied to it? Thank you.
Feel sorry for yourself.
Why?
History is not exactly science.
No. It is, however, about what happened in the past. Were you there? Do you own a time machine?
Detecting the tempurature on Pluto today is one matter.
Have you been there with a thermometer?
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 70 of 83 (371948)
12-24-2006 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Dr Adequate
12-23-2006 1:19 PM


Re: And Another True Believer Turns Pyrrhonian Skeptic
Please explain what distinction you mean to draw between fact and theory. Is it a theory or a fact that Queen Anne is dead? Were you there when she died?
That's history and not science.
Testimonials and records of Queen Ann's death most likely can be found left by her contemporaries.
Whether or not God formed Eve the first woman from the rib of Adam the first man, is a historical concept. No one witnessed it except the prophet or seer who wrote Genesis.
I freely admit that it is my faith that accepts it as true. As a historical concept you don't know it didn't happen.
Your "faith" is perhaps that an ape like primate gave birth to the first woman. Whatever, Eve's birth many thousands of years ago is historical concept we're speaking of and not a science fact we know one way or another.
It is not in the same realm as detecting the tempurature on Pluto today or examining contemporary records as to Queen Ann's date of death.
Do you think that a God who created the universe would have difficulty building a woman from the bone of a man? I don't.
And it was not a simple magic trick for trick's sake. The building of the female wife from the life of the husband is exceedingly meaningful to the whole divine revelation of Christ's purpose in building an eternal "city" out of the life of Christ.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 71 of 83 (371949)
12-24-2006 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
12-24-2006 8:08 AM


Re: And Another True Believer Turns Pyrrhonian Skeptic
Have you been there with a thermometer?
One of the Christian brothers I enjoy worship with was a planetary physicist from MIT. His thesis was on Pluto.
They have other methods of detecting the tempurature besides going there with a thermometer.
Next time I see him I'll ask how they detect tempurature on Pluto.
Eventually you like everyone else decides to trust someone. It all boils down to us eventually deciding that someone is trustworthy.
I did not start reading the Bible with Genesis. I was first persuaded that the integrity, veracity, and honesty of Jesus Christ in the New Testament was beyond question. I then noticed that in His teaching He seemed to take the book of Genesis seriously. Based on that I opened my typically closed modern mind and accepted Genesis with cautions given to what the language actually says.
I decided that if Jesus took it seriously, I should take it seriously.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1971 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 72 of 83 (371951)
12-24-2006 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Dr Adequate
12-24-2006 8:08 AM


Re: And Another True Believer Turns Pyrrhonian Skeptic
Feel sorry for yourself.
Why?
I'll answer that when you explain why my alleged Sunday School teacher should be felt sorry for.
And you don't even know if I had one. Maybe you think I was brought up in Sunday School all my life. That's your ignorance.
In fact I gave my early Sunday School teacher a considerable hard time with the book of Genesis and with some other matters. I gave the clergyman a hard time also.
Years intervened before I decided that the Bible was indeed a communication from God to man, through men moved by the Holy Spirit.
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 73 of 83 (371952)
12-24-2006 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jaywill
12-24-2006 8:33 AM


How We Know The Temperature On Pluto
First radio astronomical estimate of the temperature of Pluto, Altenhoff, W.J., Chini, R., Hein, H., Kreysa, E., Mezger, P.G., Salter, C., & Schraml, J.B. 1988, Astronomy and Astrophysics, vol. 190, no. 1-2, Jan. 1988, p. L15-L17.
Some of the satellites of Jupiter and Saturn have size, specific density, and albedo characteristics similar to those of Pluto, suggesting that there may be similarities in the physical characteristics of the surface layers. On the basis of a mean effective radius of 1244 km, the disk temperature of Pluto derived from the present observations is 39 + or - 4 K; if the size determination of Aumann et al. (1987) is correct.
EVIDENCE FOR A LOW SURFACE TEMPERATURE ON PLUTO FROM MILLIMETER-WAVE THERMAL EMISSION MEASUREMENTS, Stern, S.A., Weintraub, D.A., & Festou, M.C. 1993, SCIENCE V.261, NO.5129/SEP21, P.1713, 1993
Thermal continuum emission from the Pluto-Charon system has been detected at wavelents of 800 and 1300 micrometers, and significant upper limits have been obtained at 450 and 1100 micrometers. After the subtraction of emission from Charon, the deduced surface temperature of much of Pluto is between 30 and 44 kelvin, probably near 35 to 37 kelvin.
But no-one's been there with a thermometer.
So, is it a fact that it's cold on Pluto, or is it a "popular theory"?
They have other methods of detecting the tempurature besides going there with a thermometer.
Yes. And there are other ways of knowing about the past besides "being there".
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 74 of 83 (371953)
12-24-2006 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by jaywill
12-24-2006 8:22 AM


Re: And Another True Believer Turns Pyrrhonian Skeptic
Testimonials and records of Queen Ann's death most likely can be found left by her contemporaries.
How do you know these testimonials were written by her contemporaries? Were you there?
Your "faith" is perhaps that an ape like primate gave birth to the first woman.
No.
Whatever, Eve's birth many thousands of years ago is historical concept we're speaking of...
Like the death of Queen Anne?
Do you think that a God who created the universe would have difficulty building a woman from the bone of a man? I don't.
Ah yes, it may be against the laws of nature, but God can do it by magic.
Except that even granted that premise, all the evidence says he didn't.
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 75 of 83 (371954)
12-24-2006 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jaywill
12-24-2006 8:40 AM


I'll answer that when you explain why my alleged Sunday School teacher should be felt sorry for.
And you don't even know if I had one.
In fact I gave my early Sunday School teacher a considerable hard time...
He shoots, he scores.
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