Human Programming

I'm sorry but I dont see how you see yourself as a christian if you think greek mythology is as valid as the bible.If all religions are only map, why call yourself a christian ? There is fundamental difference in christianity vs other religions. You cannot simply accept all religious belief to be equal.I understand that you view every religion as maps, but why did you chose christianity ? Meaning why you believe in Jesus and not in Zeus ?And when you are testing the map against the terrotory what are you testing ?Ps: Dont lose patience with me Im trying my best to understand

-It is quite natural to ask question about our existance and how we came to be.
-It is also quite natural to fill this "ignorance"Does that warrant the belief in a religious book ? No-The bible is today the only "proof" that jesus ever existed.
-No record of biblical miracle have been registered(scientifically)
-No divine intervention have been recorded (scientifically)
-The existance of Jesus has never been prooved (scientifically)
-Science is the most reliable tool we have to observe the world around us
-Science has enabled us to predict what will happen accuratly(theorically)Today we're just believing in somthing different, that's it, and history showed us how our ancestor were wrong in there worship. Are we really better then them ? They believed with NO DOUBT that X god(s) existed, they went as far as to sacrifice themselve. It takes a lot of faith to do that.We know today (some thousand of years later) that they were just a bunch of primitive people and there ignorance fuelled there faith.The more scientific knowledge people acquire, the less religious they are. The more we understand the world around us, the less you are inclined to believe in God (biblical or islamic or somethin like that). I completly agree. Certainty kill the advancment of humanity. So every atheist (the one that are SURE that God doesn't exist) are on the wrong path in my opinion. But the same applies to the faithful believer.Worst, the believer thinks they know the absloute truth of life. The Bible could very well be a story. And I don't see any other reason to believe in this story but for conditionning (cultural conditionning or programming from parents at a very young age) Everyone knows about Jesus because of the Bible. But the bible is NOT a proof of jesus.Faith mostly fill the gap science can't yet understand or answer.But when science doens't fit what the bible says, most believer find themsels excuses. THAT is what conditioning is. Something it is very hard to detach ourselves from. People discover God within themselves? No, people are tought about God. I don't know any example of someone who found God with no basic religious knowledge. Nop but there is more scientifical evidence to show that aristote existed then Jesus existed. So to believe in aristote (or simply the work of someone who used a pseudonym) is more founded then the belief in Jesus or Muhammed(as the prophet of God and not just a con artist).

Okay JAr, you sure are a special christian Look it might be how I view the word : christian.To me a christian believe in life after death and believe in Jesus, He believe in the story of adam & Eve because with no original sin there is no Jesus, he believe in the Bible (albeit there is many possible interpretation). Christian knows the answer to thoses questions,
To a christian there is a life after death
there will be a judgment
etc etcSince you seem not to know the answer to theses questions, you are not a christian (as per my definition...) So I ve been trying to understand you, but your definition of christian isn't at all the same as mine. To you is christianity the most accurate maps we have ?

Catholic Scientist lets resumeYou believe in God because of evidence (for your mind)
Theses evidences are never (not even one of em) scientifically validatedAnd then you conclude with evidence you gathered (evidence that have no scientifical weight at all) that God and Jesus exist.Is this right ?Edited by Kader, : No reason given.

Well yes I agree with you although most christian don't. Yes I know ..But im not the first person for a reason. Although I honestly think your way of thinking is more logical. (simply put, you do not replace ignorance with faith..not all the time)If you do not know if there is life after death, you are wiser then most christian I know. What is the christian belief
Believing in hevaen is pretty mandatory from what I can see. But neverthe lessBack on topic.So Jar.
You disagree that cultural conditionment (or any kind) is not the factor for your belief.But what then how can you explain the belief in God without any scientific evidence ?How can we get to believe in God in the first place with no scientifical evidence ?

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The supernatural involves faith, because it pretends not only that nature is not working the way it ordinarily does, but also pretends to be able to explain it -- those laws are being deliberately suspended by agents who are somehow "above" or "beyond" nature. The element of wilful action on the part of sentient beings (gods, by any other name), prevents an atheistic outlook from including any notion of the supernatural.

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Science isn't irrelevent. For example supernatural event can still be recorded by science.ie :
Someone that dies and then ressurect.
The power of prayersSo the question is never if god exist.
It is always "do we EVER have recorder supernatural events". Do we have any scientific data that would corroborate the validity of a religions ?If not, then the other option I can see is conditionning.Do you see another?

Yet im talking about people that believe, not people that hope or wish.Just for a moment lets talk about christian that knows that there is life after death or the one that think the bible is the word of God.EDIT : Recording and explaining is quite different. Science may lack an explanation, but we didnt even record any supernatural event. (like for example the disapearance of a mountain)Edited by Kader, : No reason given.Edited by Kader, : No reason given.

Anastasia, there i no such thing as A)And as for C).Nobody "just" believe they need a reason.
And i think the reason only comes from conditionning...I just dont see anything else

Well I know quite a lot of people that think they know. They act like they know, and preach like they know.As for the word of God. That means the bible is divinly inspired and cannot be wrong (there is also people believing that you know.)

What kinf of scientifical knowledge did you get exactly ? Nop I never assumed so, but I do not know. That makes me very different from you, who from evidence you gathered, seem to know that there is a God. (or that at least the Bible's msg is true and should/must be followed)I on the other hand refuse to believe in the bible for scientifical reasons. If there are parts of the bible that are totally wrong, then how can we still believe in the other parts that have not been falsified yet ? (the same apply for other religions)If God didn't actually created the man as said in the bible and we descent from the apes, well to me, the whole msg of the bible (literal) cannot be taken into account. Since it has been proved wrong (literrally). Now we could try and interpret the bible millions of different ways. My choice is isimply to stick to facts. Scientifical facts.And facts demonstrate something that doesn't concorde with what religions have been saying for the past 2000 yrs. That to me, is a big hint of "we might be wrong".I would like to remind everyone here that there are christian that hold there belief as the truth. Most of christian or musulman or... hold there belief as truth. And that is simply conditionning. You claim not to be conditionned. Yet, thoses evidence are ridicoulous to conclude that you should be christian.Evidence like,
there is a soul.MUST disreguards scientifical evidence that proves the bible to be wrong in MANY different places. It has been scientifically proven.All that is left is what science could't disprove (from either lack of evidence or simply because it's impossible to disprove..like the soul..) So you are telling me that now you are free of programing yet you refuse to say that the soul doesn't exist from "personal" evidence.Well personal evidence are worth nothing against scientifical evidence. Contionning comes at many levels.
YEC conditionning is much more blatant
Fundies conditionning is MUCH more blatant.
Your belief might not be as blatant, but yet it is still conditionning.The simple belief in soul is conditionning. Sorryas for your claim Well so are the YEC and so are the fundamentals and so do the extrem right.All thoses people believe in something from logical evidence in there minds (and it is only logical to them).There is nothing you said that even make me doubt that you were not conditionned. You simply stated that you were not because you "lost" your faith.Well once you lose faith there are good reasons usuallyTo lose a faith you must of stumpled on something that shook your believes and you coudn't find any valid explanation other then the bible must of been wrong. And this realisation might of made you lose your faith.And when I asked you what made you take your faith back your telling me in Message 148

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1) The seemingness of the existance of my soul suggests that a God does exist.
2) The teachings of Jesus in the New Testament of the Bible are true for what they are claimed to be for (personal opinion/subjective evidence)
3) Everything that Jesus said that is capable of being tested is true
4) I've found nothing in the Bible, that is capable of being tested, that Jesus said that was dishonest or false
5) Some of the things that Jesus claimed cannot be tested and seem to be scientifically impossible/miraculous (turning water into wine for example)
6) If Jesus did have magic powers then a scientific impossibility becomes meaningless as miracles would be possible
7) The truth of the non-miraculous teachings of Jesus and lack of falsehoods in his non-miraculous teachings allowes me to have faith that the miraculous parts are true too

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And you even resumed it in 1 nice little sentence

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So basically, everything that Jesus said that doesn't require faith was true in my opinion so its not hard to have faith in the miracles et al too.

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So that was what make you believe again ?
And you claim having started to believe with no prior condityionment left. HA well simply put, try and tell anyone that doesn't believe in christianity that part, and see if they will find the miracle and all "easy" toi believe.Just as a curiosity could you answer to my question at the beginning of the post and alsoWhat did make you lose your faith. What piece of information made you go "Uhhh, it can't be true because if it is..."

Science wasn't able to explain a lot of things 500 years ago. Science is slowly expanding the border of our knowledge. And it always has done so. What can’t be explainable today is most likely common knowledge tomorrow . So quite the contrary. I think that most our belief will be explained through science. And up to know with my limited knowledge I can't (it's not a choice) believe in God through the Bible or the Qu'ran.And that's why I’m not a Muslim, or a Christian(or catholic).But I never dismissed the existence of God. Well simply put it invalidates the whole thing because nobody can tell if the other parts are true, we can only speculate. If they are true too many illogical questions arise and the parts that aren't true become hard to explain. Of course I heard of lessons and parables.But sometime ago it was believed man WAS formed out of clay...wait...even today, there is some that believes that man are formed out of clay. Why do they continue to believe so ? Even though, the facts against such assertion are overwhelming.Well I say it's programming, conditioning.Now, you claim that it is ridiculous to believe such a thing (so you are claiming that the belief of MANY creationists is ridiculous) So you are insulting some people here (hehe couldn't resist)Just so you understand I'm not insulting you, at all. I'm simply showing you that to me, it is ridiculous to believe in some things just because you think they are right. Just like, to you, it is ridiculous to think that God made us out of clay. Of course it could contains some truth, but when you have to take a decision what do you do, speculate on what you think is right, or base yourself on scientific facts ? No I agree with you the existance of a soul is not provable by today's means.The belief of a soul is not supported by any evidence. I mean, even me I had a hard time when someone told me a soul didn't exist. I was taken aback, when in reality there was nothing I could think of to make a logical point to even conclude that there might be a soul.So it is ridiculous to believe in a soul because a 2000yrs old book says it exists. That is what's ridiculous. Oh bah theses are but a few errors that plague my posts. I still struggle in English. Sorry The majority of people are indeed conditioned at some level. And more and more people stop believing altogether. This has some consequences. Now the religious belief are more aggressive, and they want kids to be though (programming ?) from a very young age that creation is a viable alternative to evolution. Yes, a lot A belief usually comes from conditioning We both agree
I say all belief (there might be very few exceptions) is from conditioning. We disagree.I know why we disagree, simply because you can easily see that all those people believing in crazy things must be conditioned, yet when you come to analyze your own belief it seems all so... logic.Well I’m telling you that simply believing in Jesus (the son of God) isn't logical.If you tell me that the bible is indeed wrong, how can you support that the part where Jesus is stated to be the son of God isn't just metaphorical. Like we are ALL sons of gods etc and all the miracles he was doing was possible for all of us etc etc.. There are millions of ways to interpret, once you open the door for interpretation, you cannot eliminate all the possibilities. (I know that’s not what you doing).So your belief in a Divine Jesus is based on what ? if Not conditioning. Subjective evidence ?Thats answer is true for everyone that believes in anything. To them there is evidence for such and such claims. Always subjective though.So why do you think your any different from any believer ? What makes you think that your evidences aren’t just accepted easily because you were conditioned ? The how is easy.Family, environment etc as stated in previous posts..Your family is catholic I must presume. Or you went to catholic school etc etc. The how isn't the problem. The proof is the hard part.It has already been proved beyond doubt that evolution has occurred. There is a lot of believer that denies it. Some need reasons some are so completely shut to any other possibilities that they don't even consider it.Can you believe that my friend told me the "scientists" are lying to us. His conditioning have come against a wall, and the only possible answer to "keep" his faith is denial. To lose a faith someone must have some kind of shock. Usually it is simply reality. The cold, hard reality. No I won’t insult your belief. I might find them crazy, but remember that the person you are has nothing to do with it. My friend's beliefs are crazy, but I would never insult him, because I like the damn guy. My spelling is indeed horrible even after a spell checker.And I am a nice guy, I promise!ps : My claim for conditioning might sounds crazy to you, and you could say so, because bashing my claims isn't the same as bashing me eek ..... long post :/Edited by Kader, : No reason given.Edited by Kader, : No reason given.

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Well simply put it invalidates the whole thing because nobody can tell if the other parts are true, we can only speculate.

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That’s contradictory to a statement you make later:

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Of course it could contains some truth, but when you have to take a decision what do you do, speculate on what you think is right, or base yourself on scientific facts?

Some of the truths can be based on scientific facts, but this doesn’t mean that it makes the whole thing true, just like some of the (claimed) truths being scientific falsehoods doesn’t make the whole thing false.

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Okay, let me put it like this.Anything that the Bible or Qu'ran affirm should first be validated.
Why ?
Because everything that we accepted was eventually demolished by modern science. So logically, before continuing accepting affirmation from either religious book, we should validate it. If we can't validate it, we should at least be very wary.You understand this way of thinking.So even if there is some truth, if we cannot verify them, we should at best be wary.Bible say Jesus is the son of God ---> logical position : wary at best
Why ? Because the bible also say's god create us out of clay and the earth is flat and....(can continue for a long time) Btw, the belief of soul itself in no way implies the belief in christianity. So even if you can really believe you have a soul, your belief in christianity still (thats what i think) are conditionned Logic is the only tool we have to tell truth from delusions. Logic dictate what's true and what's not. If something is illogical, you will most likely believe it to be false. And logic expand with knowlegde. Thunder might seem illogical, but once we understand it, it becomes quite logical.So truth can only be logical
Nobody believe in a religious, if he believe there is nothing logical in it.There are way to make the illogical ---> logical with knowledge
And that's where we fail. We do not question the knowledge we have been thaught. If I grew up "knowing" that Jesus is the son of God, tehre is very little chance someone else can make me think otherwise.Now where science differ is it is in constant questionning. And Religions don't question anything.It is quite easy to understand how someone can believe what seems totally illogical to you, simply look "where" he got his information from. Every religious people get there "knowledge" from specific and restrained sources. While Science gets the knowledge from the largest angle of view possible. And that's what make a big difference. The most intelligent peoples in the world tend to be agnostic (or atheist). What conditioning does is change the weight you use in the "balance"
Let me explain.We have no scientific evidence for Jesus even existing.
**that should add weights on the left side of the balance.Jesus teaching is logical
**that should add weights on the right side of the balance.The bible (the only place where Jesus is ever mentionned) has tons of erronous informations
**that should add several weights on the left side of the balance.The bible has existed for 2 millena
**that should add weights on the right side of the balance.Etc etc etc...In your case, the weight you add is much heavier on the right side of the balance, that is conditioning. That is what I mean. You do not really have critical thinking. Because if you did (oh my god I will get flamed for that) you wouldn't be christian or muslim or....you would probably be agnostic. Because like you said that IS the logical position, and logic is the only tool we have to define "truths". I agree with you, it is conditionning. Now try and open your mind as wide as possible, and answer me truly, do you think you would find muhammed teaching more acceptable if you were born in a muslim family ? But yet, there is more intelligent people then both of us who are muslim, buddhist or scientologue... quite simply put, your beliefs are really just that, beliefs. And what drives them is human ignorance.Education tends to enter in conflict with faith.Today as we speak, the only reason anyone believes in a religion, is because they were told about it. Nobody ever witnessed a miracle.PS : first language is french

Ah well okay we advanced quite a bit I find. So we agree that your belief is at least PART conditioning.
Tell me what are the other parts. For your specific belief.I'll also adress some things in your last post And so a Divine Jesus is NOT just accepting what conditionning you have receive ? (aka simply being christian) Well Jesus is the son of God, and the same God created us from clay. There is no questions, just affirmations.What religion pushes us to question its own affirmations ? Why would we logically conclude that God doesn't exist ?
We can logically conclude that Christianism or Islam are most probably wrong (both of them) yes we could do that, but we cannot logically conclude that God doesn't exist. Because I also said that our logic expands with knowledge.
Take Thunder. It would seem logical that someone control the thunder for people with very limited knowledge. But the truth is quite different, and it is very logical.So truth is always logical, but something logic in our eyes can be false. Well then mere observation of our world would easily prove you right, if you were.But what we see is quite different.All religion got ahold of a specific territory on the globe (before we could easily communicate around the globe)
Every believer tend to follow the belief of his familyIf you assertion was true, we would see scientist over the world converting to christianism. Since with critical thinking alone they could come to the conclusion that your belief is actually full of sense! But that's not whats happening.We see on the contrary people losing faith. And why do we see that ? Because our faith in all we held true was just a big fraud. That's why. No God didn't create us from clay THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM, why do you think that people still hold evolution to be false ? Because there conditionning cannot allow them to even THINK that they could be wrong!And for you, it is the same, on a different level. You cannot understand why I would say that believing in Jesus being divine (christianity in other words) could be so illogical.Well it is, and not only to me, but to EVERYONE that is NOT christian.So anyways, I think you were about to tell me what would be other factor outside conditionning that could make you (or anyone for that matter, since it isnt conditionning) a christian.If you were to make me a christian what would you say ?
Oh and personal logic dosn't apply here. Im talking about what everyone (or at least a very big majority of people) would call that logical.IE : If I throw a coin in the air, it will ocme back down. It is logical, and everyone agree's with what I just said.Edited by Kader, : No reason given.

Do you want to go through the (probably lenghty) process of defining thoses evidence.By evidence, I mean evidence outside of conditioning.
So any evidence that require ZERO biblical knowledge.Simply put theses evidence to be outside of conditionning could be explained to someone that is not conditioned to believe in the bible (or even never heard about it).

Well take it differently.Once you affirm you are not christian it is usually either because you adhere to another religion, wich generally means that you find others belief illogical...

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IE : Scientology find his own belief logical, hence believing in a God that create us is illogical since evidence around us point that Xenu the suprem galactic being send souls etc ete etc...

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IE : For muslims God cannot have sons, christianity is illogical

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or because you have studied the said religion and chose that it is hard (illogical) to believe X, Y or Z thing really happened just because someone or something claim so.So in both cases (wich should logically englobe pretty much..everycases) if someone isn't christian, I can safly say that he finds the whole belief illogical, or that you have to make illogical assumption to believe the whole thing.They might be exceptions.. I'm just not intelligent enough to find any right now Please note that my annoying comment arent there to annoy you. It is justs omething that I find quite logical. And usually don't spend to much time explaining it. But I'll try each time to make myself a little bit clearer Yet this interpretation isn't logical to me. We're made up of a lot of thing that are not earthly, hydrogen, oxygen etc.. and no, atom doesn't come from the earth...So even your interpretation isn't true... If we don't assume anything outside of our knowledge I don't see how.... Can you throw a coin and make it leave the gravitational pull ?
I was speaking as if "someone" threw the coin. A human, you me or anyone else.oh and..well check my previous message