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Author Topic:   schrodinger's backside
meese
Junior Member (Idle past 6319 days)
Posts: 12
From: cochrane, alberta, canada
Joined: 12-25-2006


Message 1 of 45 (372149)
12-25-2006 5:17 AM


the copenhagen interpritation of quantum mechanics suggests that an observer is required for any quantum event to have a definite outcome. the classic example is schrodinger's cat...
the cat is in a box, an unpleasant box with a poison capsule attached to a trigger. the trigger is based on some radioactive particle, which has a 50% chance of decay (this being the quantum possibility). if the particle decays, the trigger breaks the capsule and the cat dies. by the copenhagen interpretation, this box contains both a live and dead cat, which are the same cat, which is/are actually a probablity feild that encompasses both possiblities, not to be resolved into one real living or dead cat until someone looks inside to find out.
no one points out that the cat has awareness and thus cannot (by any means i know of) disolve into a probability field, so we will not notice that sticking point either. what i would like us to notice is what this could mean about the universe in general, the people in it, and how it relates to what many people think of as god.
specificly, i am often noticing that the world exists, (or atleast it sure seams like it is existing to me). this is very important, because if this fairly rigourous physical theory is correct, if no-one was noticing the universe, it wouldn't be there. which begs the question, who was noticing things before life existed?
i am taking it as granted that the western scientific viewpoint of natural history is approximately correct, what with a big-bang and evolution and all. intelligent design people like to point out how very convienient our universe seams, from physical laws that allow for complex chemistry (or any chemistry for that matter) to our big, weird, tide-giving moon, to the giant asteroid and comet vacuume cleaner that we call jupiter. they say it seams an awful lot like someone gave us a very friendly place to grow up.
now of-course if reality were unfriendly we wouldn't be here asking the question, but that doesn't make it any less remarkable. or does it? what exists if no-one is looking? probability. probability can and does include some pretty wacky stuff, including the spontaineos leaping into existence of whole universes, provided said universes are not infinite (it is infinitely improbible that infinity would leap into being).
but no probability can become reality without someone there to notice it. there-for, the only universes that can be created in a big-bang are ones that living observers will exist in. the universe is (or could be, atleast) so convienient precisely because it could not be real without us, or someone, here to see it.
if the omnipresent, omnipotent god exists, we could have any old universe he/she/it/they desired. guys with pitchforks and pointy beards underfoot and krishna squaredancing with jesus inside every cumulonibus cloud. but what it seams like we have is a universe fine tuned to our existence, which intelligent designers point to as the signature of somebody doing some very serious civil enginering. what i would like to point out to them is that these triats are PHYSICALLY REQUIRED for any universe to exist at all, and given the nature of probablity the spontanius and authorless generation of such a universe is exactly what you would expect.
that doesn't mean that god doesn't exist, or even that he/she/it/they didn't create the universe and puts us on the path we are on. what it does seam to suggest to me is that whatever happened, it wasn't on purpous.
maybe it would be more fruitful to consider the future instead of the past if we are to have a relationship with an intelligent designer. maybe we should build one.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 12-30-2006 8:41 AM meese has replied
 Message 7 by Nighttrain, posted 01-06-2007 8:41 PM meese has not replied
 Message 8 by Nighttrain, posted 01-06-2007 8:41 PM meese has replied
 Message 9 by Nighttrain, posted 01-06-2007 8:41 PM meese has not replied

  
meese
Junior Member (Idle past 6319 days)
Posts: 12
From: cochrane, alberta, canada
Joined: 12-25-2006


Message 3 of 45 (374894)
01-06-2007 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
12-30-2006 8:41 AM


concision
in short, if the copehnahagen interpretation is correct, an "intelligent observer" was/is required for the begining of the universe to exist, big bang or otherwise.
subpoint: perhaps this observer could be removed in time, i.e. us right now.
conjecture: what if god, in this all powerful creative facet of the begining of everything, could just as easily be the combined consciousness of us here and now (and in the past and future).
is that intelligent design? i don't think so. but it sure give a lot more room for a god like entity to be neccisary to our scientific understanding of the universe. seams like the universe can't exist without such an entity, not by faith but by math. i bring it up because i do believe that god must exist for exactly this reason, but the math says nothing about this being the god we are all used to, and flatly contradicts the idea that the world is 6000 years old. i would really like some people to wonder if maybe everyone is half right (which seams to be preaching to the choir on this site). this seams like a good tool for reasonable people to all get on the same page and move on to more important things like the future.
i don't know what response i want to this idea though. maybe tell me i'm wrong, so i can convince you? or maybe i put this forward as a totally acceptable way to introduce the idea of intelligent design in a science class. would a fundamentalist of the stripe that would like to pass of the more traditional intelligent design arguments as science agree to this as a sort of compromise? is it okay to teach intelligent design if it "proves" (or rather strongly suggests) that there really was such a thing as dinosaurs and homo erectus? yes. please put this in the education section. i appologise for my verbosity, i'm working a night shift as i write these things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 12-30-2006 8:41 AM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by cavediver, posted 01-06-2007 9:58 AM meese has replied

  
meese
Junior Member (Idle past 6319 days)
Posts: 12
From: cochrane, alberta, canada
Joined: 12-25-2006


Message 10 of 45 (375084)
01-07-2007 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Nighttrain
01-06-2007 8:41 PM


big rocks
could it not be though that throwing big rocks is a good way to evolve a robust and intelligent species? i mean, who survived the dinosaurs rock? rats and birds, no? neccesity is the mother of invention... especially when it comes to interesting evolution.
and really, big rocks yes, but not really out of control huge rocks that destroy whole planets, atleast not lately. jupiters really does do a pretty good job of keeping house.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Nighttrain, posted 01-06-2007 8:41 PM Nighttrain has not replied

  
meese
Junior Member (Idle past 6319 days)
Posts: 12
From: cochrane, alberta, canada
Joined: 12-25-2006


Message 11 of 45 (375088)
01-07-2007 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by cavediver
01-06-2007 9:58 AM


no professional
first off i'd like to ask the world in general how i quote someone. clearly i'm no new world pro.
but you talk about decohernece, which i just looked up. huh. well i still want to salvage this thing somehow, but i feel like i'm grasping at straws now...
drat. i got nothing. time for a little think.
thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by cavediver, posted 01-06-2007 9:58 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 01-07-2007 1:26 PM meese has not replied

  
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