What Happens When You Remove Faith

Penalties do help keep me in line, althought they aren't a very good reason for good behavior.One of the reasons that my morality hinges on my belief in god is that without god, I see humans as 'just another animal'. One of the reasons that I desire to be good to people is that I think they are special, because of god. I don't really care about the other animals that much.Without god, and any real meaning to our existence, none of this shit really matters. Selfishness isn't 'wrong', it just isn't good for everyone. But that doesn't matter either OTOH, selfishness is good for me, so there is a benefit to it.If we're all godless animals without any real meaning to our existence, then fuck all y'all, gimme mine. None of this shit matters anymore. But then, maybe I'm just a bad person. You should be glad that I believe in god. It makes me a better person. I think I would still help people if they needed it and it was convenient. I don't really see a reason to NOT help someone. I don't think that I would do less good, I'd just do more bad. Selfish acts that benefit myself that I would no longer find 'morally wrong' because nothing actual means anything and there really isn't much of a right and wrong to speak of. I think that I just wouldn't give a fuck. You're probably right that not a lot would change. My day-to-day behavior wouldn't really be any differnt, but my attitude would be. I wouldn't just go on a murder spree or anything, but I think I would be a lot more apathetic. Over a lifetime, I suspect that things would go differently for me. Now that I think about it, I don't think I would ever fuck over my family and friends for my own benefit, even while disbelieving god.

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You need the ones you love, and love the ones you need.

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I'd still care about my family and friends even without god's existence. I don't think my apathy could go that far.

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Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.
-Avenged Sevenfold, "Bat Country"

Boo-fucking-Hoo.There's no reason for personal insults, crybaby.

Nope.Without god, do you think that a tiger would torture you? (and lets not get into defining ”torture’, I’m just using the same word you used. You could replace it with ”maim’ if you want) Me neither, Whatever. Thanks for the words of wisdom, phat

Welcome to the disgusting club. Maybe, if you believed in god, you would do more good

I guess if nobody is getting hurt then it really isn’t bad.But there are things, like stealing a pack of gum from Walmart, that don’t hurt anybody in particular that are still bad. And there are things, like self defense, that hurt other people that aren’t bad.I can’t simply use ”hurting others’ as an absolute for determining if something is good or bad. So? I didn’t type better (moral) person. It makes me a better person because of my actions, not my philosophy behind the actions. That’s how most people are. Take away the punishments or penalties for the bad behavior and people are going to be bad.Ever been in a mosh pit? Its practically lawless in there. There’s guys in there groping girls and picking pockets. If your in a mosh pit trying to be nice to everyone, you’re going to get groped and robbed.Or how about Mardi Gras or a riot? People go balls to the walls when there’s no penalties for their behavior. And these people rely on the penalties to keep the bad guys in line in order for this to work. Otherwise, while you’re trying to be nice to everybody, bad people are going to be getting the best of you.How long do you think Walmart would last if there were no penalties for stealing? What about when you’re surrounded by selfish assholes? It doesn’t work so good then.And I guess that’s where our differences begin. Most of the people I encounter are not “moral (good) persons” as you described above. We need to have laws and penalties to keep these people in line. Yeah, as self defense.

No. I don’t think that I am a bad person and belief in a supernatural father figure is not the only thing suppressing my “badness”. But it does act as additional suppression.I think that most of us are sorta bad by default. I also think we could resort to “badness” very quickly if necessary (or even just convenient). I think that a lot of people need penalties to keep them good. There’s much more disgusting things to be heard. If you want to bury your head in the sand pretending everyone is outside being nice to each other and nothing is disgusting, then have fun.

Are you just talking about primates? I think an animal, in general, values another animal for its own benefit. They are ”thinking’ of themselves first. Belief in god is irrelevant to adhering to social rules of right and wrong. It can, however, provide additional incentive to adhere to the rules. Or does that make it relevant?

That's bullshit. There are a lot of non-sociopathic people that are not empathetic and are only good because there are penalties for the bad behavior.You got rose colored glasses. But there are penalties for not eating. There aren't any penalties for not being empathetic (while also not being bad).It is not an ability and a motivation. Nah. That's too much causation, you got it backwards. We lived in social groups therefore we evolved empathy. But it doesn't require hard-wrining. People could just fake the empathy to stay in the group.

What about the people who claim they do the right thing simply because it is the right thing, and not because of selfish reason, and find people that are willing to admit selfishness as a reason to be disgusting? So you don’t find these reasons for good behavior to be disgusting? I don’t really think that people, in general, “care” much about things doing the right thing. I think they are just following societal pressure to do the right thing. Without the pressure (ie remove the penalties), and people will do what they can get away with doing as we see in riots and mobs, etc. But all you need is a local majority of “fuck yall”’s to screw over all the righteous people. The righteous people need to maintain the ability to enter the “fuck yall” mentality as a defense against it. That’s what I’m talkin’ ”bout.In the big picture, people aren’t as righteous as Schraff seems to think they are. But if it serves as a justification for avoiding bad behavior, then isn’t it stopping you? That seems, to me at least, to be a fault of the specifics of the religion and not of religion, in general. I agree that religion offers another label that can be used for outgrouping, but I don’t think the religion is the cause.Did you see that episode of South Park where religion was gone, and they had all the atheist leagues fighting against each other? I think it makes a good point that people are going to quarrel regardless. All you need is two groups and some time. Sure, religions have been used this way, as has nationality and all kinds of stuff. I don’t think it is the fault of the particular label, its just something we do as people. But without god, I enter this nihilistic mentality where, because we are just another animal and like where you said we don’t differ from them above, we are only being righteous for selfish reasons. When you add god, you add another layer to existence that can include non-selfish reasons for righteous behavior. This makes us different from the other animals, and in turn provides a reason for deserving the righteous actions. Like I was saying with the South Park reference, its not the layers themselves that cause the behavior. People are that way naturally. If you remove one of the layers, then that gap will be fill with something else, IMHO. You’re assuming that it is going to make a difference, that there will be something valuable that we’re paying for. I can see why you think that and don’t really have anything to refute it. But I don’t really think that its going to stop anything. If you remove religion, people are just going to find some other bullshit to fight over, IMHO. I have no idea what your talking about . Looks like a joke that is over my head.

I have been overly coarse. I'm sorry, I've been having a bad week and I'm kinda crabby. I just want to point out that I wouldn't abandon all dignity and humanity. First of all, its hypothetical, I don't KNOW that I'd turn to asshole-ism. I just think that I would be more asshole-ish if I stopped believing in a particular fairy tales. Why is that so bad? Why do you find that disgusting?

That's kinda a Strawman.Not being empathetic is different from never having empathy. And I was using penalty in the context of how pain is the penalty for not eating.

Well, it looks like we need to get more data before we make a definitive conclusion.But, the implications of the conclusion could blow my argument right out of the water I’m not arguing that idea. Point taken. I shouldn’t have put that word only in there. There are a lot of people that have the ability to feel empathy, but are not empathetic and are good because of the penalties that are not sociopaths. I’m not saying these people have NO ability to feel empathy, just that they are not empathetic or don’t care to use their ability. People who are unable to feel empathy are sociopaths by definition. But I do have the ability to feel empathy so I’m not a sociopath.

Some bad/selfish/immoral behavior feels pretty good or provides positive effects. For people of faith, the big eye in the sky is one more reason, and sometimes the only reason, to not behave that way. When you take away that reason, the benefits to the bad behavior seem to outweigh the penalties.

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Oh, there ”s no god? You mean, I can go sleep with a bunch of whores with no penalty? Let’s do it!

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Its not that hard to extrapolate that to include other stuff too. But when you think about it, you’re not going to go and do things that are very obviously immoral. And those things are easier said than done. I think its more about the reasons for avoiding the bad behavior than for doing the good. The non-religious reasons to give and volunteer are much more obvious than the non-religious reasons for not fornicating. But then, I do that anyways, so . That brings up two points.Maybe fornicating is not wrong.
Maybe it is and you need god to understand why.When you take god out, you’re only left with the first.Even without god, I can think of reasons to avoid fornication, but not for the immorality of it. Which is why I do it, I guess. All you have to do is conflate hypothetically more asshole-ishness with being a monster and badda-bing, same thing It probably comes from being told that things, that have no obvious non-religious reason for being immoral, are immoral because god says so.It not that hard to start lumping in things that are obviously immoral and say that you would do those too.

Or maybe it is old ladies who are the only nice ones.I'm not talking about mobs or mosh pits. I'm talking about everyday, mundane life.
But as an aside, I have indeed been in a mosh pit or two. At the Lilith Fair, for example, I was never groped even though I was surrounded by lots of lesbians and quite a few men. I just went to a great English Beat show and was right down there in front dancing and jumping with everybody else and didn't have a problem. I even left my purse unattended at my seat.

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Most of the people I encounter are not “moral (good) persons” as you described above.

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Maybe because like attracts like? Well, actually, I’m quite charming I think the anonymity brings out the worst in me Consider yourself lucky. By performing the action anyways, even though it makes them feel bad. Or by ignoring their feelings. I didn’t say they could choose to not feel something.

Never read it Maybe I’ll take a look. Why? More than by a person who didn’t behave with humanity? Why does their motive matter so much as long as they are still humane? But it has happened in humans a lot. Go figure. I see that. I even mentioned something similar in my first message in this thread. It doesn’t always happen that way with me. I think that my belief in god helps make up my mind. Ok, I think I get your drift now. Thanks. Its not wholly “fear of punishment”, though. Just sayin’. But there are some advantages to having religion, so it comes down to how you weight it out.