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Author Topic:   How complex is God?
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5501 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 26 of 59 (407130)
06-24-2007 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by sidelined
06-24-2007 9:41 AM


Re: Re-How complex is God
Infinite regression of the universe today does not occur since before the Big Bang the properties themselves do not exist though some form of universe does.
There are a number of metaphysical problems one needs to address when discussing temporailty in reference to an event such as the 'Big Bang'. In regards to the discussion at hand the problem is temporal and not causal. Stating 'before' implies a temporal succession based on causality. If something happens 'before' an event it is temporaly prior to that event.
Based on our current understand of the physical universe there are no events temporaly prior to the Big Bang singularity - the compactification of matter-energy has folded the worldhseet of spacetime in on itself. At T=0 one reaches a singularity-infinite mass energy and a resulting infinitesimal crunch on the time dimension. In such a physical singularity the 'moment' of the Big Bang is T=0. Temporality would have no meaning at T=0. Asking what came before is meaningless as temporality and causality grinds to a hault. The idea of time or change becomes meaningless.
Also asking what caused the singularity event at T=0 has no physcial meaning as cause implies a prior event and thus implies a temporal succession existed before T=0 - our current understanding of the laws of nature clearly tell us otherwise.
Stating a divine act is responsibile for the Singularity at T=0 implies a prior temporal existence as well. Since by defintion such an entity resides outside of the temporality of the worldsheet then such an entity is static and does not change. So how can it produce a change?
If one finds it difficult to accept this get out a sheet of paper and draw 2 axis for space and time. This is your imaginary worldhseet on which all casuality plays out. The presence of mass determines the topological properties of this worldsheet which itself is embedded in a higher dimension. The greater the presence of mass becomes localised to a point the more the sheet becomes distorted and extended into the dimension in which it is embedded. In the case of a singularity simply roll the paper up into a cylinder until the radius approaches zero. Both the space and time dimensions are warped and compactified to a point within the higher dimension in which it is embedded - they dissapear. You cannot draw out any events on this worldhseet - neither the space nor time dimensions have any extension as they do not exist. A physicists will state space and time began at the moment of the Big Bang. The beginning is when the sheet started unfolding and the dimensions of space and time increased from being wrapped into a point to having extension.
Really the only thing one could say and retain any sense of consistency or validity is that a Singularity existed at T=0.
This is exactly why scientists have always abhored the notion of singularities in nature - it leads to infinites and causal breakdowns. With the observational evidence for such oddities as Black Holes it is becoming obvious we really have no choice but to accept that singularities exist in nature.
If one wants to start speculating on what exists or did not exist 'prior' to the big bang singularity then one is forced to:
- Revise our conception of the fundamental nature of time and causality.
- Reject the idea that there really are singularities in nature.
- Simply Reject the Big Bang hypothesis - Argue that although it appears to us the mass-energy in the universe has expanded from a point perhaps we are wrong and future discoveries will revise this idea.
- Propose the idea of interconnected multiverse where the worldsheets of the multiverses are not connected. Since they are not connected temporaly then how can one casualy influence the other?
- Insert your theory here.
All one can do is speculate.
Edited by Grizz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by sidelined, posted 06-24-2007 9:41 AM sidelined has not replied

  
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