If evolution is not the answer, then what is?

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Interesting, isn't it, that it was the 'caustic words' that led him to believe that 'we' believe ourselves to be Christian?

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It's nice to have an admission. There's about 80 adults in our community, and most of them were "the best of the best" when they were Christians. Knowledgeable, committed, in church every time the door was open, avidly anti-evolution, etc. Several were evangelists, deacons, ministers of music (no ex-pastors except ones who started their own churches). By most I mean 65 to 70 out of the 80.Every last one will tell you with a shudder that what they learned best from Christianity was to be mean (verbally, at least). We're embarrassed to call ourselves Christian, because we're embarrassed about how mean/rude we learned to be in the past, and we're trying to put it behind us. We need a new word or something. For right now, we use no word at all, and generally, if someone asks if I'm a Christian, I say know. I've told a couple people that our group is Hindu, because we really like Gandhi. To me his "Truth," whom he personified so much that he treated "Truth" pretty much as a being, is my Christ.

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I think your words scared him more than anything we evil ones could have said.

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No doubt. We decided once to drop in on a group in Indiana, about the same size as ours, with about 20 people. We really were excited, thinking they were doing pretty much what we were doing. We'd read their books and seen one of their videos. We called on the way, and their pastor left an obnoxious message on his answering machine saying that if it was me calling, just keep going home, don't stop in his city. He didn't even have the guts to answer his own phone.One other small group heard about us, called us, got real excited, and then I offered to come visit, bringing two couples with me, just for a weekend. The guy who'd been emailing us was real excited, but when he mentioned it to the leader, the leader said no, and then they never answered another one of my emails.My point in those stories is: talk is cheap. Literal's easy if all you have to do is argue stories in Genesis. At Luke 12:33, the talk starts turning expensive. Real expensive.[edited to fix misquote][This message has been edited by truthlover, 06-04-2003]

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Every last one will tell you with a shudder that what they learned best from Christianity was to be mean (verbally, at least).

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You've seen those posters, "Everything I need to know, I learned in kindergarden." Well, everything I need to know about being a vicious, nasty human being, I learned in church. It is sad, really. Religion should not be like that. Belief in miracles should not produce that.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Amen, brother. Heck, even when I was among the flock, I always used to hear the joke about how much sheep bites hurt. Having seen how many abusive predators hide in the church, I think I'm safer without it....

Try LRP's "scientific theory of creation" in the book nook. It indeed gave me a prespective I had not found prior to reading it. It is an addtion to c/e work.

hey brad you got a link to that?

A scientific theory for creationI've just re-read the entire topic fairly carefully. A pretty interesting topic, that suddenly died. It doesn't seem that author LRP is still around.LRP had offered to send out copies of his book - as of somewhere on page 5 of the above cited, Brad received his copy.Moose

An Answer in Four Parts - Part One BThank you for your repliesThe prophet John was imprisoned for bluntly telling Herod that his marriage was an adulterous arrangement between a whore and a whoremonger. So, Jesus sent comfort to John with these words, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. (Matthew 11:4-6) As John’s disciples departed, Jesus said to the multitude nearby, concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind? But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses. (Matthew 11:7-8)John was rough in his application of truth toward men. He had no time to grin and say, God loves you all but hates your sin. God’s kingdom was too near to mince lies with truth. Likewise, Jesus’ candor about himself to theists brought him to Calvary. I too have no time to mince words about Jesus Christ. I am offensive to you because I will not move from God’s creation in 6 days or his flood. What else do you expect us Christians to believe? That God is a singularity? Some of you claim to be Christian, so believe in Jesus Christ or stay a whoremonger married to a whore and reap the consequences. If you can’t believe Genesis, or that Jesus is the Creator, then consider Jesus’ words to John, And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me. But, if you insist in being offended in Jesus, then consider further the import of that unbelief on your soul seeing that Jesus’ prayed about you to his Father in the same chapter: I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. (Matthew 11:25-27) I say again, repent and believe in Jesus Christ.I think three false assumptions found your challenge for an alternative hypothesis of evolution. The first, that evolution is an actual, observable phenomenon today; the second, those scientists who rely on the Bible and prayers are not scientists; and, the third, that the Bible is perfectly reconciled to the first two. I have no alternative evolutionary hypothesis, nor am I aware of any other Christian that does, because God created this universe in a special way as described in the first two chapters of Genesis. Christians believe Genesis because God gave them the gift of faith then saved their souls by it. (Ephesians 2:8-10) I go farther and say that those false professors of Christ who condemn prayer in the lab condemn faith elsewhere. They usually hide their unbelief behind a mask of reserve. These are wolves in sheep’s clothing that profess another gospel because their profession of evolution requires denial of Jesus, the Creator. (2 Peter 2:1-22) Of course, I am too kind, Peter sums it up thus: The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (v.22)It’s blasphemy to believe that evolution is our creator because John’s gospel specifically names Jesus as the Word, the creator of heaven and earth. Given the amount of scripture in my prior letter, detailing Jesus’ claims of Deity, there’s no explanation for this denial other than unbelief. That unbelief abounds is evidenced by the popularity of texts used by groups like the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the so-called Jehovah’s Witness.’This archetype of modern evolutionary religion fabricated their New World Translation (NWT) so that their version of John 1:1 corrupts the truth. It reads, In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (John 1:1, NWT) Notice that they first transpose (en ‘o logos) as (logos en) which is both sloppy and unprecedented in the NT. They then translate (en ‘o logos) again, in the same verse, as was a god. There is precedent for both was a god and was a God in the NT but each instance is an anarthrous (theos), i.e. no (‘o). (see Luke 20:38, Acts 12:22, 28:6, Hebrews 8:10) But again, they could have used the only other use of (en ‘o logos) in the NT (Luke 4:32) to understand the difference between the (logos) of God and God the (logos). For various other examples of (en) see John 5:35; 6:27; 11:41; and 1 Corinthians 10:4.Since their belief in evolution requires them to deny the Genesis Creation, they also deny that Jesus is God by saying that he is ‘a’ god. Sin precedes their sloppy exegesis of the Greek as it does all attempts to write Jesus out of his own Bible. Like them, any religious organization that supports evolution produces similarly perverted material. Rome is one of the worst but the other councils, conventions, and covenants that claim orthodoxy and trust their own abilities are just as bad. They all share sacerdotal confidence in their own works which ultimately leads them to believe that the works of God’s Creation have made them too. However, just as Jesus created the physical universe in six days (John 1:1-14), he is the only one who can create a living soul in a dead sinner. (Ephesians 2:1-16) Until he does, you who don’t believe in him are as dead as the inanimate chemicals with which you hope to create life.Sinners have always sought to displace Jesus from his throne so your attempt is no new thing. Notice how Paul spoke out against the naturalists of his day when he wrote to Rome:For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 1:18-25)I joined this board trusting that God would either circumcise the hearts of its members with faith or that they would at least know the charges against them prior to the second resurrection, seeing that they have had over a week to digest the scripture in my prior letter. I don’t know why the founders of this board sought us Christians, instead of God, but perhaps it is, after all, a plea for help.Perhaps the embarrassing shift in Big Bang cosmology, from a defunct model of singularity, that once left room for agency in the minds of many theistic evolutionists, to the new proven Hawking/ Penrose model, that purposely destroys any possibility of agency, has vexed their theistic minds. Perhaps the embarrassing lack of generated life, since the first quixotic trial in 1953, has made them to understand, in Hawking’s words, that One can not make nucleic acids in the laboratory, from non-living material, let alone RNA. (Life in the Universe, Public Lectures, para. 12) Perhaps, too, they finally see that, despite their best effort to measure DNA, God, and not just Heisenberg’s principle, prevents the accurate measurement of his original and hides the key to life. Or, perhaps they now know that if they can’t produce life after 50 years that it’s time to get out of the kitchen. Maybe they’re just tired of recent speculation about Martian bacterial invasions and other forms of alien migration that put the sci- in Sci-Fi. Or, perhaps it’s the lack of spiritual satisfaction theistic evolutionists must surely long for within the frigid doctrine of St. Kelvin’s gospel, verses 2.7248 through 2.7252 (an homily on temperature fluctuations that vary by millionths of a degree), that their new orthodox Rector, the Right Reverend Hawking, prates about at St. Gould the Divine’s. Whatever the reason, I know that it’s not founded in God’s righteousness.The only way that I will respond, therefore, is with the gospel that Jesus Christ is God. You may scorn him but I believe in something that God has not yet allowed you to see. I also both see and believe that you have found an anomaly in the light spectrum because your equipment was superior this time. Has your vision just now improved since 1965? Brilliant! So, what will you do when you progressively find that, as I predict you will, God’s Creation defies either measurement or duplication outside of belief in him? You will replace your present Rector for a new one, close ranks once more, and deny that God is your creator even while he watches from heaven above.Have you no idea that God has you in derision because you do not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ? Your behavior was prophesied in Psalm 2:1-6, Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. So, turn from your gods and worship Jesus Christ before it’s too late.Continued in Part One C

Part One C
Continued from One BThe Bible provides another model with which to address you: Paul’s speech to the Athenians on Mars Hill. If Job were in Athens, that city of worldly knowledge in Paul’s day, he might have quipped, No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you. (Job 12:2) But he would have continued with, The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly. But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat? (Job 12:6-11) And so, they that love to hear every vain hypothesis or discuss every speculative notion are without excuse in the end.The Bible tells us that Paul’s spirit was stirred by the idolatry of Athens so that he disputed with them about Jesus Christ in the Jewish synagogue, with the religious devout, and at the public market place. Soon, the Epicureans and Stoics, the scientists and naturalists of their day, verbally assailed the gospel of Jesus Christ, saying, What will this babbler say?, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods, because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection. (Acts 17:18) Having a primordial hypothesis of evolution, but no internet, they took him to the Areopagus where they said, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. (Acts 17:19-20) They had no serious ambition to believe in Jesus, they just wanted to see if there might be some new argument to replace the dead wood of the past, viz. v.21, For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing. Paul didn’t mince words either. He stood in their midst and told them that they couldn’t see God because they were blind. In his way, he said that since their agnostic poets had babbled about magesteria that they weren’t unaware of God so that God held them responsible for repentance and would no longer accept their blindness as an excuse for worshipping nature.Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:22-31)Paul also received little positive response from the academicians of his day because the Athenians loved to dispute the existence of God, too, rather than believe in his only begotten Son. The Bible describes the incredulity of these scientists and naturalists at the gospel, saying And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. (Acts 17:32) Nonetheless, at least one Areopagite, one woman, and those with them, believed. (Acts 17:33-34)Perhaps some of you will likewise hearken to the gospel and believe in the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. Perhaps you too will repent and confess to God that you are a sinner without hope except by the blood of Jesus.

Edited out. It was off-topic, and won't receive an answer anyway.[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 06-09-2003]

6days, for the last time, if you can't stay on topic then leave this thread. At the very least stop preaching, or I am not going to bother wading through your posts again. As I said, I am not a Christian and most of your babbling does not apply to me - but many others will be offended.Look, the only reason I brought up this topic is that the only alternative to evolution seems to be Bible literalism, i.e. God did it all and that's it. Despite this, YEC's insist on dragging science in to explain their supernatural beliefs - so they must have some other theory instead of evolution. That's all I'm looking for - not a sermon on how I'm a sinner and going to hell and whatnot.Anyway, my own views on Christianity would probably offend a lot of people - but I make a point of not bringing my personal opinions into a discussion. Could you possibly extend the same courtesy to everyone else here too?The Rock Hound

This is not debate in good faith. All you're doing is betraying your ulterior motives here.

You wanted to know what Christians think so I’m carefully supplying your answer in four parts. The only apparent reason that any of you think I’m off topic is because I’m answering according to what I believe — which is the purpose of your request for an answer in the first place, is it not — and not according to what you may wish that I would say? Don’t you all really want to know what I believe? After all, you wouldn’t have set up a straw man so that you could shoot down my answer before I dared to finish giving one, did you? perhaps to declare yourselves the victors? My recommendation is that you patiently wait for my complete answer, since I’m going to give it, and then answer it accordingly. I think you understand, however, that I have faith in God and not in non-Christian interpretations of his Creation.I fully understand that you may reply that my belief has nothing to do with the facts. This is perfectly acceptable to me because God’s Creation has nothing to do with your faith in nature. The point of my answer is not to argue belief systems because our relative beliefs are mutually exclusive and belief in God is superior to belief in a hypothesis. What I’m relating are Biblical truths that are apparently not well understood by you. It certainly matters to your soul whether you believe these things or not but at the very least you ought to be familiar with the Bible because it’s our reference point as Origin of the Species may be yours. Yes, I’m evangelistic in my answers since I should be reprobate if I was not. You certainly preach your religion at us. I’ve enjoyed the small comments made by a few in relation to the Bible, and particularly what real Christians believe, but no one has yet refuted the references I’ve given and I don’t expect anyone will. I’m certainly concerned for the souls of everyone on this board, including those that may question their having one, but I’m particularly oriented toward those that claim to be Christians since God requires them to believe Genesis if in fact they are children of God. If I have done anything, I hope that my explanation of the Bible will help these to question their relationship with God. All I can do is point to Christ, they must pray to him for guidance themselves.I have a rough idea of evolutionary thought but I haven’t studied it in a long time. I’ve been catching up on the newest fads so that after I answer you with my four-part answer I can then ask my own questions of you. I’m particularly interested in Hawking’s theory as well as the various attempts to unravel DNA. I think these two areas alone are your Achilles heel since so much rests on them being correct. I’ve taken for my tack the premise that both could be true. From there I am examining their relative merits, as I understand them, particularly their underlying assumptions. My purpose is to provide adequate evidence that they are at least tenuous, according to your own logic, since, short of God’s gift of faith, you will never believe Genesis. I have enjoyed the exercise so far and look forward to your answers later. I hope this answers your questioning of my method.

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I joined this board trusting that God would either circumcise the hearts of its members with faith or that they would at least know the charges against them prior to the second resurrection, seeing that they have had over a week to digest the scripture in my prior letter.

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Then perhaps you should confine your posts to one of the belief sections or to free for all, where the rest of us, who prefer to observe forum rules, could answer your tirades. To answer you here would require me to be as rude to IRH as you are.

What theory is that? Hawking is an astrophysicist, not an evolutionary biologist, and his best-known theory explains the so-called "Hawking radiation" that emanates from the event horizons of black holes.I'm not sure what you think that has to do with evolution. Perhaps you could elaborate. Then you might care to elaborate exactly what you think those theories state. I'd point out we know exactly what DNA does - it codes for proteins. Just because we can't predict the function, if any, of a given sequence of amino acids (the "protein folding" problem) doesn't mean that DNA is a total mystery to us.Irishrockhound, I suspect we're terminally off-topic - creationists won't provide an actual scientific model (as I suspect you knew) because, to their way of thinking, their model doesn't have to be scientific. It just has to be Biblically supported and explain some evidence.Anyway, I'd like 6Days to explain a bit more about what he/she thinks the relationship of evolution and Hawking is. I know it's off-topic but I think it could be interesting.

I've already had an angiogram. Is that close enough? (They got my weewee in my infancy.)