|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Member (Idle past 513 days) Posts: 179 From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: In His own image ..... | ||||||||||||||||||||
compmage Member (Idle past 5183 days) Posts: 601 From: South Africa Joined: |
stevo3890 writes: Does a simulation of clouds ordain where the clouds will be? Or let's say we have perfected our means of perdicting the weather so we are never wrong. Does our perfect prediction of weather, tell the weather what it will do? No the weather happens of it's own accord we just know what it would do that is what i was getting at. Are you saying that clouds have free will? That they can 'decide' to drift against the flow of air?
stevo3890 writes: As to making things impossible well, if killing were impossible than we would not be able to have a hamburger or really any food. I spoke of killing someone, implying, I thought, human beings. I am sorry if that was not clear.
stevo3890 writes: As to rape that uses the same system as reperduction, so to make rape impossible would also make repurduction impossible. I would hope that you don't have so little imagination. Why not have reproductive organs that don't function without the person being aroused. This way, unless both parties are active, willing participants, sexual intercourse is not possible.
stevo3890 writes: as to making us unable to do stuff as a violation of our free will, maybe, maybe not i don't want to get into it. Why not? The fact is that if God created this universe and decided what it's physical constraints and conditions would be, then he has restricted our free will. ------------------He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
|
||||||||||||||||||||
stevo3890 Inactive Member |
If God made us to run exactly like his simulation than there is no free will. But we came first i think because real simulations do not precede what is being simulated.
As to us controlling clouds by a weather simulator, I think you mean a weather controller, because simulations do not make real life things do anything. Lets pretend you know a guy named Jim Donovan (fictional). he has been your friend since you were kids, because of this you can accurately predict to how he will act for any given situation. Is your friend Jim mechanistic because you can do this?
|
||||||||||||||||||||
zephyr Member (Idle past 4580 days) Posts: 821 From: FOB Taji, Iraq Joined: |
Neither of your examples are really analogous to an omnipotent, omniscient god. Both imply the observer and the observed are peers.
|
||||||||||||||||||||
stevo3890 Inactive Member |
"The fact is that if God created this universe and decided what it's physical constraints and conditions would be, then he has restricted our free will."
but we break physical constriants all the time. just because human beings have not been made to fly does it limit our free will? "I spoke of killing someone, implying, I thought, human beings. I am sorry if that was not clear." if human beings could not be killed i think the bible would have said God made other gods as opposed to "in his own image" which to my mind is Free Will. "Are you saying that clouds have free will? That they can 'decide' to drift against the flow of air?"Bad analogy to your mind, read my next one about Jim. "I would hope that you don't have so little imagination. Why not have reproductive organs that don't function without the person being aroused. This way, unless both parties are active, willing participants, sexual intercourse is not possible."What a excellent idea why don't you put it in God's suggestion box.
|
||||||||||||||||||||
stevo3890 Inactive Member |
"In his own image" suggests we are peers in regards to image.
|
||||||||||||||||||||
compmage Member (Idle past 5183 days) Posts: 601 From: South Africa Joined: |
stevo3890 writes: but we break physical constriants all the time. just because human beings have not been made to fly does it limit our free will? The constraits I am talking about are things like flying, so yes. However I was concentrating more on acts that cause other people harm. I can not kill you simply by snapping my fingers. God apparently does not think that I should be able to use my free will in this manner, yet he finds it acceptable that I can shot you.
stevo3890 writes: if human beings could not be killed i think the bible would have said God made other gods as opposed to "in his own image" which to my mind is Free Will. I can't recall the exact text (maybe someone else can?) but I do remember that God says, after Adam and Eve had eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, that he better get man out of the Eden before we eat from the Tree of Live and become as Gods. If nobody else can remember this verse I will look it up for you tomorrow.
stevo3890 writes: Bad analogy to your mind, read my next one about Jim. I find that one little better for the same reason expressed by zephyr.
stevo3890 writes: What a excellent idea why don't you put it in God's suggestion box. If God is all-powerful and all-knowing then I shouldn't have to. ------------------He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
|
||||||||||||||||||||
stevo3890 Inactive Member |
Free will does not imply being all knowing and all powerful.
|
||||||||||||||||||||
compmage Member (Idle past 5183 days) Posts: 601 From: South Africa Joined: |
stevo3890 writes: Free will does not imply being all knowing and all powerful. I never said that it did. However God is supposed to be all-powerful and all-knowing and to have given us free will. The whole point of this argument is that free will is not logically possible if God is all-knowing. If you do not subscribe to this idea then you need to define what you mean by God. ----- I also noticed that you didn't address any of my other points. ----- The passage I was speaking about in an earlier post is Gen 3:22. ------------------He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
|
||||||||||||||||||||
Asgara Member (Idle past 2332 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Hi all,
I have been following this thread and have a few observations to make. Back in message #7 Drum stated:
A good God would not create something as we see it. referring to man's supposed fall from perfection in the garden. According to the bible, your god obviously DID create something non-perfect. If he is omniscient like your good book says, then he knew before hand what was going to happen and he created Adam and Eve anyway. Later on in the thread Stevo again talks about god's omniscience and about man's free will. If I were to believe in the bible, I would have serious questions concerning this contradiction. (in fact I DID when I was a believer).
I just do not see how believers can literally believe all these things about their god. They are not only contradictory among themselves, but contradict the actions of this god. ------------------Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
|
||||||||||||||||||||
iamNOTamonkey Inactive Member |
in response o the Mark Eastman issue, he has not only read Denton's book, I marked it up more than any book he owns. Denton has been an evolutionist for decades. There are plenty of evolutionists that are "antiDarwinists." That is, they believe in evolution, but not in Darwin's formulation. Nature's Destiny is Denton's attempt to present a "deterministic" view of evo in which the laws of physics supposedly are "rigged" to create life. Mark's personal mentor, Dr. A.E. Wilder-Smith, has met with Denton many times to discuss these things. Believe me, he was an Evolutionist when he wrote Evo: A Theory in Crisis, but he was not a Darwinist!
As for the last subject, God is Omnicient, Omnipresent, etc... and you were not created for the purpose of being damned. Yes, God knew of your every waking moment in life before you were made- however, while you yet breathe you have ample oppurtunity make the choice to serve Him. Your choice is your choice; as far as God stoping bullets and "impeding on ones free will", the flaw in this argument is the fact that the word of man has greater power than the word of God. (This is biblical, and i will get the exact reference as soon as possible.)The reason why? Because while He has His plans for you, you have been granted the freedom to do what pleases you- your choice for your life. This is no different than a mother and father wanting the best for their children, but letting them run their own life and make their own choices, knowing that they will eventually suffer consequences and reap rewards based on those choices. Angels DO have free will. God did create imperfect beings, yes. However, Eve was decieved, because (as far as scripture shows) she was never told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. Was this an oversite on Gods part? No, because in Revelation, God sets satan free for a time, after the millenium reign of Christ, because the people born during this time have not had the oppurtunity to choose something other than God. God did not err here; this was deliberate. [This message has been edited by iamNOTamonkey, 08-14-2003]
|
||||||||||||||||||||
Asgara Member (Idle past 2332 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Hi Iamnotamonkey
As for the last subject, God is Omnicient, Omnipresent, etc... and you were not created for the purpose of being damned. Yes, God knew of your every waking moment in life before you were made- however, while you yet breathe you have ample oppurtunity make the choice to serve Him If, as you state, god knew of my every waking moment in life before I was made, then he already knew I would be agnostic. He would know what the state of my mind would be on my death bed. If he "made" me anyway, knowing in what state I will die, then I have no real choice.
However, Eve was decieved, because (as far as scripture shows) she was never told not to eat of the fruit of the tree of life. How was Eve deceived? The truth was told to her and later verified by your god himself. I do want to say one more thing. Some people think the agnostics on this board and others are arguing from a mindset of being "angry" with god and wanting to prove him wrong. I just wanted to state that as far as I go, I am arguing from a mindset of critiquing a piece of literature. I just wanted to state that in no way am I angry with god, or disillusioned with him. I don't believe he exists. I am discussing a literary figure in a poorly set out book. ------------------Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
|
||||||||||||||||||||
A_Christian Inactive Member |
Asqara:
Your life isn't finished yet. Your life may change. You may havechildren who WILL go to be eternally with GOD. Have you read the entire Bible? It seems miraculous that any book could be written THROUGH by so many different people, from so many different backgrounds, over thousands of years and yet remain so focused.
|
||||||||||||||||||||
Asgara Member (Idle past 2332 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Hi AC,
Yes, I have read the bible, and YES my life has changed. I use to consider myself a Christian though I never thought of myself as a creationist. As for my life changing again, I guess an omniscient god would have known that that would happen. Same for someone who dies a confirmed atheist, an omniscient god would know that before the atheist was ever born. Therefore this god created someone destined for damnation. What do my children have to do with my state of belief or disbelief?Whether or not my children were destined to believe in your god says nothing about the reasons for my being here. I have raised my children to question everything and search for their own answers. I have no fear that they will turn into any form of mindless robot. They are creative, intelligent, well-adjusted, moral individuals and strong free-thinkers. As for the bible being so "focused", I don't see it. ------------------Asgara "An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
|
||||||||||||||||||||
A_Christian Inactive Member |
Asgara:
For YOUR children and their children to exist, clearly you mustneed to have existed. Your fate is not the determination of theirs. MS. Madaline Murry O'Hare raised her son an atheist. He is now a repentant Christian Evangelist. Her end is not his and HIS salvation is secure. MS. O'Hare had her opportunities. I don't know if she is in heaven or not. Her life was not a happy one and her death was sad...
|
||||||||||||||||||||
Asgara Member (Idle past 2332 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Hi AC,
Then why did you bring up my children in a reply to a post concerning my beliefs? And what does Madalyn Murray O'Hair have to do with me? (edited to fix typo) [This message has been edited by Asgara, 08-18-2003]
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024