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Author | Topic: Misunderstanding Empiricism | |||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: They are if those "natural methods" have not been demonstrated to work in rigorous double-blind controlled studies.
quote: But the studies don't claim that Tylenol or Midol will definitely work for every single person. What they claim is that they work for specific conditions better than placebo. Personal experience is inferior when making broad claims because personal experience isn't tested against placebo. Personal experience when used to extrapolate to groups isn't tested at all, and can't help but be riddled with bias and error. And, this is fron your own source on "soft evidence":
As James Randi likes to point out: extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If you are making tremendous claims, be prepared to back them up with a tremendous amount of explaining. Your results will not become accepted until they are confirmed by others, but nobody will invest the effort to attempt confirmation until you make your claims plausible. The burden of plausibility is on you, the heretic.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sure it does. Let me give you another example to illustrate my point. There are people with legitimate advanced scientific degrees in relevant fields who reject Evolution, either in full or in part. Not many, but a few. Their reasons for doing so are not scientific, yet they use their credentials as scientists to give weight to their unscientific views. Many of this group of scientists have published legitimate(non-creationist/ID) work in journals and some remain active in their fields. By your rationale, we shouldn't reject those scientists' error-filled and unscientific views of Evolution simply because they have a PhD and have or are doing good-quality work otherwise.
quote: No, they really don't, PD. Not when making scientific claims. That's kinda the whole reason I wrote what you were responding to:
Personal experience is inferior when making broad claims because personal experience isn't tested against placebo. Personal experience when used to extrapolate to groups isn't tested at all, and can't help but be riddled with bias and error. Unless you are trying to claim that castor oil packs work just for you or something...
quote: By the same token, if you want to avoid being steamrollered by frustrated people, then I suggest that you start actually responding to what people write and debating a bit more forthrightly. In other words, stop avoiding direct questions, feigning dumbness, and stonewalling. (Universal "you")
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Translation: I don't like it that nobody in this thread will let me simply repeat myself over and over and that everybody in this thread keeps pressing me to actually respond to rebuttals.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
This is so perfectly appropriate, I just had to post it here.
Obviously, for a scenario of this type to be turned into a comic, it must happen frequently, as PD and others have demonstrated.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The chemists and biologists told you in the Castor Oil thread that they couldn't see how the castor oil could be getting into the blood stream through the skin, that the McGarey studies appeared to be of poor quality, and that the increased T-cell counts reported could have been just from the heat or low-level ricin poisoning. This is what the scientists here have told you they know about castor oil packs. How have you incorporated this information into your individual experience? It appears to me that you haven't incorporated this scientific information into your individual experience at all. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
There is no positive evidence to support the idea that you have incorporated the facts and conclusions provided to you in that thread, since you have indicated that you still consider McGarey's work to be in any way useful.
For example, how have you incorporated this message from Coragyps? You never replied to him there:
Once again, PD - those fatty acids are indeed present in castor oil, but very nearly entirely in chemically combined forms. Specifically, they are present as esters with glycerol, called triglycerides. Exactly the same as how three molecules of stearic acid combined with one molecule of glycerine makes up most of what we call beef tallow. All of the natural fats and cooking oils I know of - lard, tallow, soybean oil, safflower oil, whale oil, olive oil, etc. - are combinations of three fatty acids (those on your list or dozens of others) with one glycerol. (Glycerol is the same thing as glycerine.) And all of those fatty acids are very close cousins, chemically, to each other. They differ in how they are metabolized, but any of 'em have to get into the body before they get metabolized at all. And skin absorption is going to be a might slow route for getting in. Or this one from Meddle, that you also didn't reply to:
The point I was trying to make, albeit not very well, was that the immune system was reacting to the castor oils irritation of the skin, resulting in the inflammatory immune response. A permanent rise in lymphocytes is not necessary, since this increase simply represents a population of identical clones. As I said, the lymphocytes will decrease after the cause of the irritation, in this case the castor oil, is removed and any remaining in the skin is neutralised. But if the castor oil was making a positive effect elsewhere in the body, this increase in lymphocytes should persist.
Can't find anything so far on an increase in lymphocytes directly affecting liver function or any other part of the body, aside from the damaging effects on tissues by cytokines. However, the immune response would be localised to the dermis directly beneath the castor oil pad, since this is the site of inflammation.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: PD, I didn't ask any yes or no questions in my previous post. I noted that the fact that you still think that McGarey's work is useful indicates to me that you haven't incorporated what Meddle and Coragyps told you in the Castor Oil thread. I asked you how you had incorporated what they told you into your individual experience. Based upon how you are continuing to argue in this thread, you haven't incorporated any of it. Look, if all you are going to do every time your claims about castor oil packs, or any healthcare stuff, are questioned is refuse to answer because it is "personal", then you should really stop making claims at all. Edited by nator, : No reason given.
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: False. This has been demonstrated to you many times.
quote: You have never supported this claim with evidence. You have had many opportunities to do so and never have.
quote: Both of these people advocate various forms of unscientific quackery. This has been pointed out to you many times.
quote: Sure he did. That he advocates non-scientific quack treatments oin his practice has been pointed out to you many times.
quote: He lists several quack, unscientific treatments on his website. This has been pointed out to you many times but you refuse to address it.
quote: You mean like ingesting non-nutritive toxic herbs that contain proven liver poison, like comfrey? This has been pointed out to you many times but you have yet to address it.
quote: There is little to no scientific basis for much of Naturopathy, and its underlying philosophy is based in Spiritualism and New Age mumbo jumbo. The "Vital Force" and all that. This has been demonstrated here many times.
quote: I've asked you in the various past threads to provide the science, but of course you haven't. All you ever do is make baseless proclomations.
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