For FFGFollower - Here's your chance!

FFGFollower, I thought this could be a place where you could present one or two topics to discuss. That could take the form of (for instance) "Such-and-such data from some branch of the sciences is contrary to what the evolutionary model predicts."Seriously, I'd like you to bring your hardest conundrum, your thorniest evidence, and be prepared to support it with your own words (not by plagarising others.)Also, if you like, you could view a summary of the evidence for evolution I whipped up a few weeks back and we could discuss some of that, too. Here's the link: EvC Forum: The Nature of MutationsWhy don't you look over that list, come back here, and tell me why you don't think that stuff points to a theory that says that the diversity of life we observe today is the result of random mutation and natural selection?

No, actually, we answered it and refuted it. You, on the other hand, couldn't defend it, because it wasn't your argument in the first place. It was like trying to argue with a book; you can yell and yell but paper won't listen.So, what I'd like you to do is present an argument in your own words, so that you're able to defend it - not just shrug off evidence to the contrary and use name calling.Now, are you here to discuss, or are you here to call names, argue in bad faith, and generally be an embarassment to persons of faith? Does your god tell you to make fun of people who are smarter than you? I doubt it, somehow. Maybe you'd like to take it up with him.

We want to have a civil argument where we discuss evidence for both sides, in a calm and civil matter, with people who know what they're talking about.So far none of this describes you. We can only assume therefore that you have little to no ability to defend your position, therefore I ask you - why are you a creationist? It's obvious that you can't support it. Wheras we have significant evidence for evolution. You're clearly a "follower" in every sense of the term. Do you think god wants you to turn your brain off?

Arg, nothing upsets me more than this particular misstatement of evolutionary theory. (Don't you guys ever look up what evolution is before you try and argue against it?)Evolution doesn't say "everything is random". Far from it. All evolution says is that the modern diversity of life is the result of random mutation and natural selection. That's a far, far cry from "everything is random".It's like a casino. A casino has games of random chance, with no predictability whatsoever. Does that mean it's not ordered inside a casino? That it's a melee of chaos, with no rules? Of course not.Evolution is strict natural law applied to random mutation. Not just a free-for-all of random chance. To suggest that is an equivocation of the worst sort.

Mike, since you seem ready to excuse FFGFollower's rudeness, let me ask you - does this comment of his:

quote:

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Use your brain, you obviously aren't if you believe in "Evolution"

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represent acceptable and polite behavior to your religious tradition? Is this a comment you would consider "Christ-like"? If you don't think so, perhaps you might mention that. Perhaps FFGFollower needs to hear it from somebody who's opinion he won't immediately reject.

Actually, I oppose religious thinking in all it's forms. If there was a scientifically better alternative to evolution I would accept it instantly. But there's not, so the ToE is what we've got.There's nothing at all religious about my acceptance of the ToE, because I always grant that I could be wrong. Now, beliveing the fairy tales in a 2000-year-old book, that's religion. Do you believe the bible with the same tenativity that I believe in science? That is, do you admit the possibility your bible and your religion could be wrong?

Not quite what I asked. What I asked was, "could you admit the possibility that the bible might be wrong?"(Sorry about the uppercuts, but I'm just trying to sound you out about some stuff. Forgive me if you don't like the thrust of my argument. [This message has been edited by crashfrog, 06-17-2003]

Even your interpretation that the bible is the inerrant word of god? Could that interpretation be wrong?Also I was hoping you could tell FFGFollower and I whether or not you thought telling people they aren't using their brains is Christ-like. I can understand if you feel that humility demands that you not judge him, but I'd like to know. My own feeling, as I remember the lessons from my old church, is that rude comments are hardly Christ-like. Certainly I wouldn't consider them so. Would you? Glad to hear it. Me too.

Tit for tat, my friend. If you can't take the heat, don't start fires.Did you have anything substantial to add, or are you just here to call names?

But I think tentativity is just as important as those things. If you don't have tentativity, you don't have science. If you aren't willing to admit that you could be wrong, you can never truly know if you're right. Creationists don't proceed from tenativity; they proceed from a conviction that the bible can't be wrong, and that's one of the reasons creationism can never be science.FFGFollower, it's your spotlight - anything to add? Do you think creationism is scientific? Or do you have a problem with all science?

I guess FFGFollower is happy in troll-town. Might as well close the thread.Last chance, FFG, to pick a topic and defend it in your own words. Cut-n-paste doesn't get you very far, nor does personal incredulity.

Did so. Your turn to defend it. That's how this works, see - you argue, I answer, you respond. Back and forth. Give it a try.Anyway, you didn't really "say" anything - you copied somebody elses words as your own. I suspect you don't truly understand the issues, and that's why you can't explain them in your own words... please, prove me wrong. I'm seriously asking you to convince me. I want so much to scientifically prove that a loving god must have created us all. After all if it happened that way there must be some evidence, right?(BTW are you ever going to own up to plagarism? Isn't that a kind of "bearing false witness"? What does your bible say about that?)[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 06-19-2003]