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Junior Member (Idle past 6130 days) Posts: 2 From: Alabama, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Mimicry: Please help me understand how | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
quote: Fine. If neodarwinists position is antiselectionist as well in the case discussed so much better.
quote: It is probably because of my grasp of English that I was misunderestood. I wanted to say that neodarwinian experiments indoors have probably no relevance to real behaviour of birds outdoors. It is very strange that neodarwinists observing birds in cages came to conclusion that birds avoid poisonous aposematics and yet stomach contets of birds in free show opposite. It is not only US. Biological survey that made such vast research of contents of birds stomachs. The same research was done by Csiki in Hungary in 1905-1910 but only in 2.800 birds compared with those 80.000. But their stomachs contain also lot of aposematics and Heikertinger used this research to back his idea of ineffetiviness of aposmatism (of models I addded for better underestanding). Because of both researches done in the nature I see no point discussing some neodarwinian indoors experiments (did you give any link to them at least?) that should invalidate conclusions of mentioned outdoors data. Heikertinger quoted a reserach of some caged bird that eats wasps until beeing stung. Then it avoid them. Neverhenless the stunged bird eat wasps after few hours as readily as before. Is this the point you aim at?
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
If this is the explanation for the results of indoor tests then it must follow that being indoors makes birds behave in a very specific fashion ie., they avoid mimics only after eating models.
How long did they avoid them? I am almost sure if they are hungry they will eat them again. No one claims that they would rather die from starvation as far as I know.
I'm not talking about stinging.
I see. You have obviously accepted the fact that sting play no role in protection of wasps. Anyway one would say that no other protective mechanism remains to deter wasps predators as birds. Because "only after eating models" - as you depicted it - is very vague. We know many animals that eat poisonous organisms and eating of which would kill us or other mammals. That some birds after eating wasps vomits do not prove anything in my opinion. They vomit to feed their youngs, they often vomit to get rid of indigestible parts of food they ate.
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
I am a little bit perplexed. Mostler in the point 27). claims that
negative experience take effect 14 months, but in average 3 months. On the other side he claims in the point 13.) that after 3 weeks when birds were offered mimics they ate those mimics like this: Seracomya borealis 71,5%, bei Chrysothorax festivum 74,5%, bei Eristalomya ienax und Myatropa florea 85,2%, bei Eristalis arbustorum 87,6%, bei Helophilus trivitattus 90,8%. I am afraid birds wouldn't remember for 3 months that wasps taste bad. http://www.springerlink.com/content/vm6p110542322302/ I know you would insist whatever the time is it will give wasps small "survival advantage". But this is only one neo-darwinian research that you offered against the research of 80.000 birds done by US Agricalture Survey.
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
What makes you say that?
Our article stated about wasps that "It is the terrible taste that the venom imparts to the abdomen that is the main deterrent for birds." It is weird how birds are extraordinary taste-sensitive in these neodarwinian experiments. I suppose that such sensiteveness to "terrible taste" is some kind of speciality of researches proving aposematism. Because in cases where "natural selection" is not the issue of the research the experiments show something different and birds are more relaxed:
quote: And these sentences also contradicts the observed fact that birds avoid 3 months distatesful aposematics:
quote: Birds do not have very good memory and they do not have good taste (except in expertiments proving effectiveness of aposematism where birds obviously always somehow surpass all expectation):
quote: The chemical senses of birds 1970: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article...
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
The problem of aposematism doesn't rest on the bird's memory. You alwasy pick up some lateral argument and focus your attention to it. I have given you link that chemical senses of birds are poor. They have only small fraction of taste buds comparing mammals. But there are also mammals that eat wasps so that "terrrible taste" wouldn't be so terrible as darwinists would like us to believe.
You should better focus yourself to the "selective pressure" that led to the change of ovipositors into stings when stings do not - at least in the cases of birds - do not offer any significant protection.I would like to know your explanation of it.
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
quote: According this research it is spores of fungus that are responsible for the yellow stripes of Vespa orientalis. I am not sure if that shades of green, beige, black are also due to the color of spores of fungi. But it would be more simple explanation of difference of coloration of these Hymenoptera as those neodarwinian questionable "protective coloration" of them. One should be really blind not to ask why are wasps aposematic and bees almost cryptic when "aposematism" for poisonous bees should have given them the same "survival advantage". Fungi and coloration of some hymenoptera: http://scilib.univ.kiev.ua/article.php?27251 http://www.desc.med.vu.nl/Publica....R_3.htm ---As to dr. Adequate, I don't read his posts anymore. His posts should probably gave some arguments or elucidate problems from darwinian point of view, so let his posts serve for discussion with other participants.
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
What kind of mimics do you have on your mind? Some given species from Diptera or Lepidoptera? You know we should find out if the given "mimicry" is not pure chance of looking alike by transforamtion sequences which would exist also without wasp model. And we should also find out if birds are so mislead by it as neodarwinists are.
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
Whatever mimics you would like to discuss.
First we should perhaps agree in the cause and the origin of the aposematism of wasps. Bees venom is stronger that those of wasps and wasps do not have so much venom as bees have. Wasps use their venom often when preying (maybe their sacks are are full of venom in experiments in cages, something that doesn't occurs in the free - hence the difference of bird predation in cages and in the free. Just a thought.) Anyway you didn't answer to the question about non-aposematic coloration of bees. And the question is important, because it has been posed even in the article we discussed about:
quote: So why?
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
No problem. What do you propose is the cause and origin of aposematism in wasps?
I don't know, but preliminary I doubt it is natural selection due predators.
I didn't see a question about non aposematic colouration of bees, only a question about the honeybee complex. I'm not sure what a honeybee complex is in this context. Are you suggesting that honeybees are not aposematically coloured, or are you suggesting their mimics aren't, or both?
Looking at honeybees I would say they haven't any "warning coloration", they are almost cryptic. It is very strange considering the fact that wasps are "aresposematics" according the neodarwinian hypothesis. Honeybee's venom is more efficient that the venom of wasps. Because the stings obviously play no role in aposematism of wasps I wonder if "natural selection" forget honeybees or what. Even some scientists (and their researches which are no way "outdated") are surprised by the fact that honeybees should be protected by stings or their venom as neodarwinists claim (and called such claims as "belief"). "Poisonous" bees are very often preyed upon:
quote: If you want to save some money do not order the artile at blackwell synergy but have a look here instead: http://psych.mcmaster.ca/dukas/Dukas%202001.pdf
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
Once again, I've not stated that bees don't have natural predators. You are just repeating points raised earlier (indeed, you raised this point in your first message), I responded in more or less (Message 16), and you changed the subject. I don't feel like doing it again.
But this is the crucial point even if you don't want to address it again. The article about the predators of bees (and waps, have you ever heard about birds family specialised on bees, wasps, hornets called Meropidae? Meropidae or "bee-eaters" bird's family has many species). Again:
quote: It might mean that poisonous hymenoptera are preyed upon in the same degree as other insects that are not poisonous and are not aposematics. Using conclusions of McAtee who summarized results of contents of 80.000 birds stomach:
quote: You only repeat again and again:
Once again, I've not stated that bees (wasps) don't have natural predators.
But if wasps and bees are to be eaten in the same degree as other insect species then the protective value of their venom should be reconsidered. Many bird's species maybe don't like wasps venom, but they get rid of it beating wasps on branches. Considering all these facts there is no need to suppose that "warning coloration" of wasps has any effect to predators. You may repeat that "some birds eat some wasps but it shouldn't be use as an evidence that aposematism is ineffective" of course again and again.
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
If an insect can fool a predator just one in ten thousand times into not eating it because it looks like something that the predator would rather not eat right now - we have selective pressure.
Then you have to explain the coloration of honey-bees. Honey-bees have no way "aposematic coloration". If your neodarwinian hypothesis is right than you must explain the force that prevents honeybees to get "aposematic coloration". What kind of force it is? You must also explain the force that prevent "imperfect mimics" of wasps to look like a "perfect mimics" of wasps. Every "imperfect mimic" of wasps having more resemblance to wasps should obtain "survival advantage". Such an "imperfect mimic" looking more waspish should have more offsprigs you know. Yet there is the abundance of "imperfect mimics" of wasps. What's the force preventing them to look like a "perfect mimics"? They have the ability to fool predators "one in ten thousand times" as you have written. Doesn't "natural selection" give some "survival advantage" to the more waspish looking individuals or what?If yes, why there are so many "imperfect mimics" of wasps?
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
If honeybees have no aposematic colouration, they share this fact with many species. Why single out honeybees?
Really? How many Hymenoptera and Diptera have poisonous sacks and stings? Why some of them having it (wasps) are "aposematics" and the others (bees which venom is more effective than that of wasps) are no aposematics?
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
The point is that "mimicry" of wasps doesn't exist. If you want to prove it you should prove that "warning coloration" of wasps have some effect regarding predators. Because the venom of bees is more effective than the venom of the wasps you should also give some explanation of the fact that bees are no aposematics.
The topic isn't about the evolution of aposematicism.
If there is no aposematism why to think about mimicry of aposematic species?
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
Further, the existence of bird species that have evolved behaviors that allow the predation of noxious insects does not mean that the noxious venom is useless: many bird species may be deterred, even if all are not.
What species do you have in your mind? Be more precise: eagles, hawks, owls? You know eagles do not prey upon wasps but I doubt it is due wasps "aposematism".
In addition, there are species other than birds that may be deterred.
What species do you have in your mind? Frogs, dragonflies, spiders or what? No problem to discuss it. Give just examples. Dragonflies?
quote:JSTOR: Access Check
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MartinV  Suspended Member (Idle past 5857 days) Posts: 502 From: Slovakia, Bratislava Joined: |
In my previous post I addressed also mimicry. But there is no need to think that wasp coloration deters predators other than birds:
quote: Obviously in the case it is the size that counts, not "warning coloration" of wasps. http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17244503
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