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Author | Topic: The Three KINDS | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
One of the common assertions by Creationists is that Evolution has never been shown, all that has been shown is "variation within KIND."
I would like to try to work with that concept to see if perhaps rewording what evolution means might help. To start off, I propose we discuss the Three Kinds.
When we look at the first two KINDS we can see that the record over time shows that they have changed. We can also see that the first two KINDS seem to be biological in nature while the last does not exhibit biological characteristics. In addition, so far everything we have seen seems to fall into one of those three categories. So are there any other KINDS? Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I have a question. Within the categories of
we know that all animals are living. I suppose we would know that all vegetables also are or were at one time living. Can we say that all minerals are non living ? also...what things are we unsure about as regards to being alive or not?
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
All animals and plants are alive.
Viruses may or may not be alive. Minerals are not alive. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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sinequanon Member (Idle past 2892 days) Posts: 331 Joined: |
So are there any other KINDS? Is this a logic question? A OR NOT A? 1) and iii) together are supposed to be exhaustive are they not?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Can we say that all minerals are non living ? Yes. And by definition, minerals are made of inorganic materials. ABE: Wow, I guess I should check the stuff before I post it. I happened to look up mineral in wiki:
quote: Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABE
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
When we look at the second KIND, those things where we are not quite sure if they are alive or not, we see a whole bunch of different ways to pass on their characteristics. Viruses don't quite have the normal cell we see in the first KIND; they seem to use both RNA and DNA and even there they seem to use a variety of single strand and double strand arrangements, some direct reading, others needing to be transcribed before reading, some forward reading and others reverse reading.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Taz Member (Idle past 3319 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
jar writes:
I'm just curious. What about prions? Viruses may or may not be alive. Added by edit. I'm not sure what you mean by "kind" here. Are you trying to formulate a scientific definition of kind or are you semi-basing this on biblical reference? If biblical, I seem to recall plants not perceived as alive. Edited by Taz, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I'm just curious. What about prions? I don't know. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4218 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Taz
I'm just curious. What about prions? I would say no, no nucleic acid. Also Jar Message 7
Viruses don't quite have the normal cell we see in the first KIND; they seem to use both RNA and DNA and even there they seem to use a variety of single strand and double strand arrangements, some direct reading, others needing to be transcribed before reading, some forward reading and others reverse reading. bacteria and , i believe archeans are not true cells either, no nucleus. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5900 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I'm just curious. What about prions? Tough one. Prions are simply proteins with the unusual ability to force other proteins to conform to their shape, which then gain the ability to do the same to the next protein. I'm not sure we can consider simple replication - and not even self-replication at that - to be the sole consideration of what constitutes "living". Crystals that provide templates for other crystals to grow identical shapes would then be "alive". Do we need to go down the "what is life?" road here? Edited by Quetzal, : speling
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
mimivirus bigger than some cells and has over 900 genes
BBC NEWS | Health | 'World's largest virus' foundMimivirus - Wikipedia quote: Gets down to the definition of life again. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
But the Second KIND is stuff that may or may not be alive, so either way it is okay.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
But it may also never be a cut and dried divide ... but a
-10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 00 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10 Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Equinox Member (Idle past 5170 days) Posts: 329 From: Michigan Joined: |
FYI - Ancient Jewish writings stated that there were exactly 22 kinds, and listed them. Back in my "How many kinds are there?" thread (http://EvC Forum: How many Kinds are there? -->EvC Forum: How many Kinds are there?)I wrote:
I found this in a translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, from 4Q216 Col. 4-7 (pg. 321 in Wise & Abegg “The Dead Sea Scrolls”), which has:
In all there were 22 kinds. He finished all his works on the 6th day, everything that was in the heavens, on the earth, in the seas, in the depths, in the light, and in the darkness, in every place.
Wow, 22 kinds! Now we know.
Here is the list, which contains both living and non-living things:
OK, here is the breakdown given in the Dead Sea Scrolls - if you read Gen 1:1-31, you’ll see that it matches the Genesis account very closely. Day # # Kinds made that day List of the Kinds made on given day 1 7? Several kinds of Heavenly spirits that make rain, snow, etc. ? 2 1? The Firmament? 3 4 1. Plants that make seeds, 2. sprouting plants, 3. fruiting plants, 4. forests 4 3 1. Sun, 2. Moon, and 3. Stars 5 3 1. Sea monsters, 2. Fish and swarming ocean life?, 3. Birds 6 4 1. Humans, 2. Land animals?, 3. Things that creep on the land?, 4. Cattle Total 22 DSS are clear that the total is 22 There are several places where the text is unclear or simply missing. I’ve indicated this with question marks. My summary of the effects of this list is:
The reason I asked is because an examination of the kinds can provide evidence as to whether this is of divine origin or of human origin. If it is of human origin, one would expect that the groups to fit a bronze age worldview, with only very general similarities being used, without knowledge of the detailed scientific findings since the Enlightenment. Categories could be expected to overlap because of this lack of knowledge. By this, one would expect the kinds to be very biased toward what a bronze age warrior can see. On the other hand, if this is divinely inspired, one could expect that the classification will be far in advance of what a bronze age warrior would otherwise guess. For instance, it might be pointed out that There is more than one kind of worm (entire phyla), while all vertebrates are a single kind (phylum level). I hope everyone knows better than to use the “people back then could only understand dumbed down science” approach. People back then had the same brains we do, and were just as smart. They were ignorant, but that’s easy to fix with knowledge. Hindus for instance had already postulated a universe billions of years old, and the intricacies of language show that ancient Jewish people weren’t stupid. Because of this, simply telling them the correct answer would have worked well. The upshot is that the list found in the DSS, just like the Genesis account itself which it closely matches, shows all the hallmarks of a bronze age human account, and is filled with scientific errors. For instance, nearly all phyla are hardly mentioned - such as sponges, nematodes, all prokaryotes and archaea, etc. All animal phyla but one (chordates) are lumped into “things that swarm in the water” and “land creepers”. Plants are very crudely classified apparently by reproductive method (except “forests”), with many plants falling into most of the categories simultaneously (many make forests, make fruit, have seeds, and sprouts). Where would all the mosses, ferns and the whole fungi kingdom go? Vertebrates, on the other hand, which bronze age warriors would be most familiar with, are spread over a half-dozen kinds (5.5 of the 7 animal kinds are vertebrates). Lastly, mythical creatures are included, such as sea monsters (or do they mean whales?) and weather spirits - as well as including non-living things, and not knowing that the sun is an ordinary star (just closer). All this shows that this creation account (Gen+DSS) has a human origin, and that attributing it to God is simple blasphemy.
Have a good day everyone- Equinox
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