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Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: God vs. Science | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
I recieved this pretty cool e-mail that I'd like debated:
A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?" "Yes sir," the student says. "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." "Are you good or evil?" "The Bible says I'm evil." The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I wouldn't say that." "But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't." The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" The student remains silent. "No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?" "Er...yes," the student says. "Is Satan good?" The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No." "Then where does Satan come from?" The student falters. "From God" "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?" "Yes." "So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil." Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?" The student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "So who created them?" The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do." The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?" "No sir. I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" "No, sir, I have not." "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?" "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "Yet you still believe in him?" "Yes." "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?" "Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith." "Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith." The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat." "And is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No sir, there isn't." The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees." "Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer. "What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?" "Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?" "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word." "In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?" The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?" "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed." The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?" "You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought." "It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it." "Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do." "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed. "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?" The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean." The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir." "So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?" Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith." "Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?" Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil." To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light." The professor sat down. Iesous Christos H Theos H Uios Sotos Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: Wow. This was a totally differant reaction from what I expected. Well, first, I know that the professor wouldn't have been that, well, dumb. However, it makes for a good story to have the student explain to the teacher. Well, it would seem that heat and light are absolutes. I live in Montana, and it says you live in Colorado, so we should have a very good understanding of what's 'cold'. In reality, just like the student said, when you're cold you simply are lacking heat. Or, scientifically, your body is giving off more heat than it can produce, therefore you feel cold because of your need for more heat, so you put on a coat to keep some of your heat. When its dark, you simply need more light. Well, God did create us with free will (as evidence with Adam and Eve). He allowed us to walk out into the snowdrifts and feel cold. He allowed us to walk into a cave without a flashlight, putting us into darkness. And He allowed us to go throught life away from Him and His Spirit. And this life away from God, I believe, we call 'evil', like the student says. So, evil may not have been created, but it was simply the name for the choice of staying/straying away from God, just like you stray away from a warm house or the light.
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: Now this is the reply that I was expecting. Well, what would your answer be? One thing I know is that first-hand expiriances cannot be handed down. What happened to me cannot be passed onto you and you take it as if it happened to you. So, even if you have seen your brain (via a mirror or even a moving picture during open brain surgery), I haven't. Therefore, 'by rules of emipical, stable, demonstratable protocol', I have no reason to believe you have a brain, therefore, I have no reason to take this reply seriously. However, I can conclude you have a brain by its actions, even though I may not have actually seen it. I have never actually seen Go, but I've felt Him save my life (twice) and seen Him help me out (uncountable times, one of which is very promonent). So, just like I can say you have a brain because you were able to type a response to my thread, I can say that God exists because of what He's done for me.
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: First, I never expected people to take this story literally letter-by-letter. I felt that all of what you've put wasn't an accurate representation, just like you said, and I fully expected this to happen. I felt that P.S.If you'll notice, some of the story is wrong. The professor talked to two students, and he made two differant points to each. The one he made to the second was refered to by the second as 'the point you were making to the previous student'.
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: How about moving a large, heavy boat out of a strong eddy? I can guarentee you that no human could have done it. I'll describe the situation, although, as I said earlier, first-hand expirianced cannot be handed down. I was on a rafting trip down the Deschutes River, in Oregon. We had three boats, two rafts and an ore rig. The rafts held all the people, and the ore rig held all the gear. As we were nearing the mouth of the Deschutes, where it dumps into the Columbia River, I chose to guide the ore rig. The reason was because the water was cold and the wind was fast, and nobody wanted to splash the ore rig (because we had the only bucket left). So, I figured the ore rig was the only way to stay dry and warm. Anyway, we entered a patch of small islands, or I guess you could say the river widened and became very shallow. Some deep channels ran between the islands, but it was hard to keep the heavy ore rig inside of them. I would often bump into shorelines and have to get out to push the rig back into the water. The current was especially fast around this one corner. However, it whipped around a small peninsula, forming a large, powerful eddy in which the rig got stuck in. I remember it being pushed by the eddy upstream and shove it onto the bank. So, I got out and pushed it back into the river, only to have the same thing happen again. I pulled as hard as I could on the ores, but the rig continued to get sucked into the eddy. I was on the verge of tears from exhastion when the camp cook, who was also on the rig sitting across from me, said, "Do you want me to pray for you?" The fact that I wasn't strong enough to pray broke me, and I tried to hide my tears as I tried to pull the rig out of the eddy again. I know that I didn't pull harder on the ores. If anything, my breakdown caused me to go weaker. However, the rig was pushed out into the main current, as if the eddy reversed its flow, and I was out. So, explain that by using 'Fairies', 'the flying spaghetti monster', 'my (unexsistant) imaginary friend', or 'chance'.
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: Technically, you are asking them to take them on faith. A student may not always see his teacher's diploma. The student therefore has to have faith that either or
Iesous Christos H Theos H Uios Soter Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: Again, like I said, first-hand expiriances cannot be handed down person-to-person. I know that God did this for me (along with other things). I know that God exists. Whether you believe what He did for me is your choice. Unlike evolutionists, I will not force my opinions on others. I will merely state my evidence, then wait for you to make a decision. P.S. I'd be more than happy to share two other experiances with you if you ask. Iesous Christos H Theos H Uios Soter Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: Well, technically I was working with the current the entire time. However, the moment that I'd use the eddy's current to get into the stronger, main current, I'd be sucked right back into the eddy and beached again. So, how would working less change anything, besides make it so I never entered the main current?
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: I have no idea how God works. I feel that I will only understand why things happen when I get to Heaven. However, I do know that all things work out for the better. For example, in my seventh grade year, my father moved away to Montana (I was living in Vancouver, Washington at the time) and my two best friends stabbed me in the back. I was depressed, and seriously considered suicide. How in the world would that work out for the better? Well, now, I realize that through that expiriance, I learned how to choose good friends that would never stab me in the back. I learned to be more independant of my parents. I learned how God, even though He allows some things to happen, will always carry you through the hard times (just like that footsteps poem) to the other side, where you're a better person. You can't shape metal without heating it up and hitting it. Iesous Christos H Theos H Uios Soter Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: If, for Christmas, you recieved a few cups of batter, sour cream, frozen strawberries, a few eggs, strawberry jello, and cottage cheese, you'd probably think Why did I get this? This is the worst Christmas present ever! However, at the end, you recieve a book in which you learn how to make the best strawberry crepes you've ever tasted with those ingrediants, you'd then know that it really was a good present. In life, I know you'll get the short end of the stick, the sour part of the pineapple, the rotten end of the deal. But, in the end, it will all mix together to form a sweet life.
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: I spent five days on the river. That's 120 hours, and the only thing I saw floating on the water (or under it) was our boats.
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: Yes, you're right. That's because God has done so much for me. Think about this: Is there any evidence that would dissuade you?
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: You do realize that there's a differace between a possibly 800-pound boat and dye. Yes, the dye would start to go downstream, but for the boat to do the same, it would be as if all the dye would suddenly move out of the stream. Also, there was quite a bit of wind, and the dye wouldn't be pushed back upstream by the wind like the ore rig. (we had to tie the bucket to a rope and use it as a current sail to actually go downstream sometimes).
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: Ah, so you're saying that if you observe something for a time and notice a constant for that time, you really can't extrapolate backwards and say that constant has been a constant for a long period of time? However, isn't that exactly what scientists do! They notice that carbon-14 has been decaying at x rate for ninety years, then it must have been decaying for the passed 200 million years, right? Or maybe how stalagtites grow at x rate for 150 years, it must have been growing at x rate for 500 million years. Coral grows at x rate for 200 years, so it must have grown at that rate for 400 million years. And of course nothing happened to change those rates in those 500,000,000 years, but something happened to cause the Deschutes River to have debris which wouldn't get caught on the edges of the river over it's 100-mile length, get caught at the bottom of the Sherars Falls. It seems that you're in direct contradiction to yourself, just like the formation of plants and rings (which I may discuss in a different thread).
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Crooked to what standard Member (Idle past 5875 days) Posts: 109 From: Bozeman, Montana, USA Joined: |
quote: Yes, but the current was going what would be considered upstream until it met up with the main current of the same or slightly bigger power until it turned back into the eddy.
quote: Yes. The wind was moving against the water, so when I got the boat into the current, it was pushed much slower than the river, which allowed it to get sucked back into the eddy.
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