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Author Topic:   God vs. Science
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3455 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 15 of 164 (453563)
02-03-2008 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Rahvin
02-03-2008 1:17 AM


Ichthus writes:
Well, what would your answer be? One thing I know is that first-hand expiriances cannot be handed down. What happened to me cannot be passed onto you and you take it as if it happened to you. So, even if you have seen your brain (via a mirror or even a moving picture during open brain surgery), I haven't. Therefore, 'by rules of emipical, stable, demonstratable protocol', I have no reason to believe you have a brain, therefore, I have no reason to take this reply seriously.
Rahvin writes:
Logical inference is still valid evidence. Every human ever examined has a brain, and when the brain is damaged significantly, the person dies. It is therefor perfectly reasonable to infer from direct observations that you have a brain.
You are absolutely correct, but, you forgot to include the fact that Ichthus could examine your brain. It is there and ready to be examined. Although, it is highly more convenient, he doesn't just have to infer, logically or otherwise. He could subject you to an MRI or go the Hannibal route and simply open you up and see for himself (the cannibalism is entirely optional tho).
There are many scientific facts that people can logically infer or that they "take on faith" because their own research confirms prior research or because the theory/model explains all of the evidence, but the knowledge is there for the taking. It's not a big secret or conspiracy like creationists make it seem It's just more time consuming and complicated than most people have the patience for.
Thus, we have witty chain e-mails which make you go hmmm, but don't tell the whole truth or oftentimes anything resembling the truth.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Rahvin, posted 02-03-2008 1:17 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3455 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 157 of 164 (456993)
02-21-2008 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by bluegenes
02-21-2008 5:12 AM


Ironically, the piece of rubbish in the O.P. could be regarded as evidence of a false religion trying desperately to justify itself.
Why would a true religion need to attempt to deceive naive minds in such a way?
Because they know that naive minds can be deceived by simplistic, pretty little stories that can be swallowed whole without much thought. Kinda like sitcoms or pop songs or news sound bites or self-help books.
Yeah, you can relate to them a little bit, possibly, and you can ponder the message for a few minutes and then have a "deep revelation" without really digging all that deep and then congratulate yourself on your own depth without looking into anything that might contradict this revelation. And when confronted by contradictory evidence you can be smug in the fact that you have something over someone else. No one can take away your "revelation." Personal experience is powerful. It doesn't matter if contradictory evidence is staring you in the face, you know what you saw or felt or experienced (especially if someone else spells it out for you in a way you couldn't express...like preachers, self-help authors, talk-show hosts, etc). And that is what people like those who passed along the OP in an email think.
I dunno..it kinda reminds me of delusional stalkers. Pretending that every wayward glance holds significance, holding conversations in their heads about their intentions and pretending that the other person is talking back to them and even fantasizing elaborate scenarios and being offended when the stalkee doesn't remember what "they promised."
All the while the stalkee is throwing out all kinds of evidence that they want nothing to do with you. The negative evidence is just "playing hard to get" or "s/he didn't get my flowers" or "s/he didn't mean it when she said 'get bent creep.'" But the stalker twists everything around and omits the negative evidence to make themselves look good.
Funny thing is that many people won't get the hint unless they get hit over the head (literally or philosophically). The evidence is right there for you to see but you are so blinded by emotion that you can't. You want to believe in something that is not there so much that you will not recognize the police officers outside the door as having any authority. You have an invisible authority that no one else can see unless they believe your delusions. Whether it be your invisible god or your invisible "permission" (based on delusional conversations...sometimes based on a book or a movie or a music video, etc) to invade someone else's life.
Yes, I am comparing some creationists to some stalkers. The criteria is the same. Confidence in the face of mountains of contradictory evidence. The delusion is the same. Even when it's thrown in their face they refuse to recognize it. Their "feelings" top everything else. It's creepy. And it is all too pervasive. That is why chain emails like this work. People believe what they want to believe unless they actually do some work and look it up. If it is presented to them in a palatable manner and they agree with it, they won't bother. It's (the OP) just another cute, yet slightly thought provoking email from their co-worker or cousin or whoever. No need to really think about it.
Or expect real, rational debate. Because if fishie really wanted to debate he would have posted his own argument and not a chain email designed to trap people in OT discussions.

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by bluegenes, posted 02-21-2008 5:12 AM bluegenes has not replied

  
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