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Author
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Topic: Universe Race
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 79 of 410 (457203)
02-21-2008 6:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 78 by Rahvin
02-21-2008 5:38 PM
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Re: Pull
Thanks Rahvin,
ICANT writes: Our sun is a massive ball of energy. No, it's not. It's a massive ball of Hydrogen and other elements compacted by gravity so tightly that nuclear fusion is continuous. The sun radiates energy from those fusion reactions, as heat and light and other forms of radiation. So where did the stuff come from that made the energy that is radiated from the sun. Remember energy can not be created. Matter can be turned into energy and energy can be turned into mass. I propose it had to be in that pea sized something at T=O.
ICANT writes: Then when you consider the 100 billion galaxies all the stars and suns that is a lot of energy. I think you really mean "mass," but whatever. Look it would be hard enough to put energy is such a small place now you want to put mass in the small pea sized something.
ICANT writes: The core of our earth is energy. ...it most certainly is not. It's mostly molten Iron. That's not energy, that's Iron.[/QS] Does that mean heat is not energy?
ICANT writes: For all the other galaxies and gravity to work in the universe there has got to be unimaginable energy at work. You don't understand gravity or other forces at all if you believe this statement. Maybe I don't understand how gravity in the universe works and you could explain. But I know for work to be done energy must be exerted. Then maybe I am wrong.
ICANT writes: Now pack all that in something the size of a pea. What kind of force would it take to accomplish that feat. Irrelevant. There was no "packing." The Universe expanded - nobody is claiming it hat to be "wound up." Ecept you, but then you don't understand Big bang cosmology despite the best efforts of everyone here. Creationist tactic change the subject. If everything in the universe was in that pea sized something at T=O it had to be packed pretty tight. With so much force pulling it together how could expansion begin? Call that force anything you want something had to squeeze everything in the universe that is seen and unseen into something the size of a pea. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 78 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 5:38 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 81 of 410 (457220)
02-21-2008 6:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 80 by onifre
02-21-2008 6:36 PM
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Re-Planck volume
Hi onifre,
onifre writes: Physical matter as you see it today was not present at the start, it is a result of that start. I have stated several times that everything you can see and everything you can not see had to be present at T=O in some form.[/b] Unless energy and matter can be created. This can not happen, according to science. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 80 by onifre, posted 02-21-2008 6:36 PM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 86 by onifre, posted 02-21-2008 8:01 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 83 of 410 (457225)
02-21-2008 7:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 82 by cavediver
02-21-2008 6:59 PM
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Re: Pull
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: No, it did not - not in the sense you are thinking of. Unfortunately, you are asking questions way beyond your knowledge level, so there is little point trying to explain further. You need to correct all of your misunderstandings of more basic cosomology first. At the moment there is an exchange of words but not of understanding. So humor me if you know the answers. So now it is a stupid question because I asked it. You attack my ability to understand how the entire universe can be in something the size of a pea. I think it has to be compact. You gave the math showing it to be in the pea with room to spare.
Message 49Now that math will only work if you can produce a force that is capable of squeezing the energy required to produce the universe into the space you say you can get it into. If you can produce such a force to accomplish that. Then for the Big Bang to happen you have to find a force strong enough to overcome the squeezing force. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 82 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2008 6:59 PM | | cavediver has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 84 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2008 7:49 PM | | ICANT has replied | | | Message 99 by CTD, posted 02-22-2008 2:48 AM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 85 of 410 (457229)
02-21-2008 7:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 84 by cavediver
02-21-2008 7:49 PM
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Re: Pull
Hi cavediver, So you don't have the answers and if you do you are not willing to share them. cavediver I ask these questions because I have an inquiring mind. But if you are unwilling to answer so be it. God Bless, and good morning over there.
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 84 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2008 7:49 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 88 of 410 (457234)
02-21-2008 8:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 86 by onifre
02-21-2008 8:01 PM
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Re-Planck volume
Hi onifre,
onifre writes: only hydrogen was present, and at the initial moment after the Big Bang only hydrogen nuclei without electrons were present all bundled up into a pea size..for about a nano second. OK I will play along and see where you go. Where did the hydrogen nuclei come from? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 86 by onifre, posted 02-21-2008 8:01 PM | | onifre has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 89 by Taz, posted 02-21-2008 8:24 PM | | ICANT has not replied | | | Message 92 by onifre, posted 02-21-2008 8:59 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 93 of 410 (457244)
02-21-2008 9:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 87 by cavediver
02-21-2008 8:17 PM
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Re: Pull
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: This is you blathering on long after you have been told that there is no force. This is you not listening. Why should I waste my time? OK so you told me there was no force. If there is no force then you should be able to explain how you can get all that energy (mass) in something the size of a pea without having to squeeze it down to fit. That pea has to contain the observable universe, which has a visible mass of about 10^52kg
Now, the size of the observable universe is about 14 billion light years, and using the above value of density gives you a mass (dark and luminous matter) of about 3 x 10^55g, , which is roughly 25 billion galaxies the size of the Milky Way.
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=342 Please explain how you can get all that in something the size of a pea.
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2008 8:17 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 109 of 410 (457306)
02-22-2008 12:04 PM
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Re-Restart of Race
Could somebody straighten me out please? Questions Is density the compacting of matter or energy? Can matter be created out of anything other than energy? Can energy be created out of anything other than matter? Was it necessary for all matter to be at T=O in some form? If not, why not? Statements There was a starting point for this proposed race called T=O. At T=O there was something about the size of a pea that contained everything in the observed and the unobserved universe. For some unknown reason this pea sized universe began to expand. It has continued to expand until this day. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Pea size
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: Nicely put  Although, as Zucadragon correctly points out, we are being a bit loose with T=0 here, and are really talking about T>~0. Son Goku (a fellow cosmologist) brought up the size-of-a-pea in an earlier explanation to ICANT, and ICANT has stuck with this. HereYou said:
cavediver writes: That small space IS the Universe. It cannot be in any larger space because that space does not exist at that time! HereYou said:
cavediver writes: All I am saying is that at a particular early time, space is the size of a pea. At that time there is no extra empty space - it is not that everything has been squashed into one small pea-sized corner of the Universe. Space itself is the size of a pea. So anything in space must be confined to that size. Whatever that something at T=O was it is said to be about the size of a pea. It is said to be the entire universe. If it was compressed by any means, this compression had to be released in order for everything to take off at the speed of light. If it was not compressed, how would you get everything in there? Then how would you get it up to the speed of light? Or did we start off at a slower pace and increase to the speed of light? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by cavediver, posted 02-22-2008 4:40 AM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Expanding Pea
Thanks cavediver,
cavediver writes: Nothing is moving so there is no speed to get up to... space is simply expanding. The almsot perfectly uniform distribution of energy across the Universe simply becomes less and less dense as space expands. What caused space to start to expand? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by cavediver, posted 02-22-2008 2:39 PM | | cavediver has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Expanding Pea
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: Hold a globe in your hands. Point your finger to the North pole. Trace your finger down one of the lines of longitude. Notice how the circles of latitude expand as you go down? What makes them expand? This has got to be another one of those trick questions. They do not expand, they do not move at all. Everyone is in a fixed position. But since they are imaginary lines that are there for navigation purposes, what does that have to do with my question? What caused (influenced) space to start to expand? BTW was it expanding at the speed of light or faster? In Message 111 you stated:
cavediver writes: At the size of a pea, the Universe is already enormous Does this expansion take place before T=O or after T=O? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 113 by cavediver, posted 02-22-2008 3:28 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 118 by BMG, posted 02-22-2008 4:31 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 116 of 410 (457326)
02-22-2008 4:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 114 by Rahvin
02-22-2008 3:33 PM
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Re: Time
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes: You don't necessarily need a "cause" for the shape of spacetime to change as time moves. OK, what caused time to start? God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by Rahvin, posted 02-22-2008 3:33 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Time
Hi Chiroptera,
Chiroptera writes: Why don't you save everybody some time and just ask, "Why does the universe exist?" Because I know the answers to that question. One being that we can sit in front of our monitors and discuss all the wonderful things about the universe, life, and politics here at EvC, having a gracious and forgiving host like Percy. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 117 by Chiroptera, posted 02-22-2008 4:24 PM | | Chiroptera has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 120 of 410 (457333)
02-22-2008 4:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 118 by BMG
02-22-2008 4:31 PM
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Re: Expanding Pea
Hi Infixion,
Infixion writes: It was used as an analogy. That is one lousy analogy. The globe is round and nothing moves. You guys like analogies. So how about trying an experiment that will show what I mean when I talk about the expansion beginning. The next time you get in your car to go somewhere I want you to put your key in the ignition. Do not turn the key. I want you to sit in that car until it starts by itself. That is what you are saying happened to that something that the universe expanded from. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 118 by BMG, posted 02-22-2008 4:31 PM | | BMG has not replied |
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Re: Expanding Pea
Hi fallacycop,
fallacycop writes: There. I hope that helped. Nope.
fallacycop writes: Moving from the north southward Everything was lifeless nothing was moving. There was no time, no space. Just something not even the size of a pea. This something all by itself started to expand at some point and is still expanding. I want you to go get in your car put the key in the ignition. Do not turn the key. Do not press a remote start button. I want you to sit in that car until it starts by itself. This is exactly what you and everyone else is telling me happened with that smaller than a pea thingamajig the universe came from. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT
Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: 03-12-2007 Member Rating: 1.7
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Message 125 of 410 (457343)
02-22-2008 6:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 122 by Rahvin
02-22-2008 5:34 PM
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Re: Time
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes: But there's no "cause." It simply is. I will not address anything below this statement other than to say if you would like to discuss those things start a topic. I could ask you to define "it" and we would probably have different meanings. So I will assume you are saying "Time simply is" We are talking about a point that the only thing that exists is the less than pea sized universe. At what point is "Time simply is". Time did have a start. Movement did have a start. And it was going at light speed. God Bless,
"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 122 by Rahvin, posted 02-22-2008 5:34 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 126 by Rahvin, posted 02-22-2008 7:24 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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