Buzsaw Biblical Universe Origin Hypothesis vs Singularity Universe Origin Theory

No, it hasn’t. I can not begin count the number of times it has been written in the BB posts that there is no working model prior to T=10^-43. If you’re saying we can’t falsify our declaration of ignorance I can’t but agree with you, but I’ll not call it a theory. Sorry: In what pattern was it originally arranged? Was the energy clumped up in gamma ray balls, UV noodles or IR sauce?To save time I replaced the empty bits of your phrasing with blah, blah, blah. There was simply no content left in your point #3.Edited by lyx2no, : Correct bad line brake.

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KindlyTa-da ≠ QED

So summing up:1) The "theory" you oppose to your views to does not exist (as Son Goku told you). It is your invention2) The "problems" you claim that this rival theory has don't make sense. Either they are more of your inventions (making it a complete strawman) or they don't apply.3) Although you assert that your theory has no problems with the laws of thermodynamics you seem to rely on violations of the 2LoT (which you obviously don't understand even in the basic form).4) You seem to confuse "unknown" with "unfalsifiable" and even suggest that if the origin of something is known we can't tell if it is happening or not.5) It seems that your "theory" also relies on rejecting General Relativity, although you offer no alternative.If you wish to indulge in idle and uninformed musings that is your business. But why present them as ideas to be seriously considered ?

Buzsaw writes:

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The three unknowns relative to the expansion

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Incorrect. We actually know a fair amount about it. Where is your evidence that we don't know?

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1. The origin of neither can be falsified.

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Incorrect. There are experiments already taking place with regard to inflation. As I have asked you directly at least twice now: What do you think of the Hawking-Turok instanton?

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2. The means of neither can be falsified.

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Incorrect. There are experiments already taking place with regard to inflation. As I have asked you directly at least twice now: What do you think of the Hawking-Turok instanton?

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3. The age of neither can be falsified.

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(*blink!*)You did not just say that, did you? Are you seriously claiming that there is no accepted age of the universe?

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Both your science theory and my hypothesis factor in cosmos expansion.

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Incorrect. So far, you have given absolutely no mathematical construct to describe your claims. It would be helpful if you could provide the physics involved.

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My definition of space is unbounded area in which everything exists including particles, photons, gravity; everything.

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You clearly don't understand what the term "unbounded" means, then. Current cosmological theory has an unbounded universe, too.It is, however, finite.You do understand the difference between finite/infinite and bounded/unbounded, yes?

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Imo, the area/space does not have properties capable of expansion.

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And yet, we can directly observe space expanding right in front of our eyes. What do you think the red-shift is evidence of?And we have done experiments upon the inflation of the universe, too. You do understand the difference between inflation and expansion, yes?

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Rather via work, ID increases or decreases the distance between things in the universe according to the plans and purposes of the designer/manager of the universe.

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That's a direct violation of known physics.If you're going to invoke magic, simply say so.Why are you continuing to ignore direct questions, Buzsaw? I have asked you quite nicely to provide the physics behind your claims. What are you waiting for?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Buzsaw responds to Taz:

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Buzsaw, lately you seem to have been flinging around the laws of thermodynamics a lot. Would you like to write out for us the mathematical expressions to show us just how exactly do the laws of thermodynamics support your proposed hypothesis? Feel free to spend as much time as you need looking up the laws themselves.

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FYO my classroom education amounted to a high school diploma and three semesters at Bob Jones University. That does not mean my ongoing education ended there. At 72 I stop learning when my mind fails or when I die.

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That isn't an answer. You are making statements about thermodynamics which you then immediately contradict. Therefore, we have to back up and determine just what you think the various laws of thermodynamics say. No, not the pithy phrases that people come up with (First Law = You can't win, Second Law = You can't break even, Third Law = You can't even quit the game) but the actual, physical definitions.

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Imo the more relevant thing we need from you is for you to address the specific items which I've posed in this thread.

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They have been addressed. So far, you've ignored them. Both PaulK and I have come up with very specific violations of your claims with regard to established physics (general relativity, expansion of the universe, second law of thermodynamics, quantum mechanics, quantum cosmology, etc.) You've done your best to avoid them.It would help if you would actually respond to the violations of known physics your claims require.

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If you think math is required for any particular statement of mine, please explain in detail specifically why math is required for a reasonable response to it.

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Because if you're going to claim the universe is eternal, you're going to have to explain why things have not reached equilibrium since all physical reactions reach equilibrium in a finite time. This means you have to actually show how the equations are wrong and what they have overlooked. You can calculate reaction rates to determine how the reaction takes place. If you're going to say that they don't complete, then where in the chemistry have things broken down? What has been overlooked?Be specific.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Buzsaw writes:

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But the rest of you's theory has been shown to have an unfalsifyable origin.

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Incorrect. What do you think the WMAP and PLANCK experiments were for?

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By work of the omnipotent designer as I've already explained if you would bother to read it.

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But that doesn't explain anything. It isn't a mechanism, there is no mathematical formula explaining how it happens.F'rinstance, one of the biggest issues with regard to gravity is exactly how it manages to function at a distance. Einstein's solution to this was not to simply say, "God does it." That doesn't actually explain anything. Instead, he developed a mathematical model that describes a warpage of space. Light still travels in a straight line, but gravity warps space so that what is considered "straight" doesn't look that way.

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Blah, blah, blah is my only response to this without going back to see which I'm not inclined to do at this time.

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You can't remember your own argument?You can't even be bothered to remember your own argument?And you expect people to take you seriously?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Hi Rahvin, How many of those deities told us the stars were innumerable? Science has a lot of guesses.How many of those deities told us the universe was stretched out. That is expansion. Treated as a scientific fact.How many of those deities told us the earth was going to melt with fervent heat one day. Scientific prophecy. Sun going to swallow the earth.How many of those deities told us there were wandering stars? Science calls the one leaving the Milky Way outcast.How many of those deities told us there were stars that had gone dark and remained dark forever? Science calls them a white dwarf.How many of those deities told us all the nations would be able to see dead bodies lying in the streets in Jerusalem? Science calls that technology.The deity Buzsaw is talking about told all those things thousands of years ago.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

ICANT writes:

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How many of those deities told us the stars were innumerable?

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Most of them.

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Science has a lot of guesses.

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Incorrect. Science says that there are a finite number, therefore they are not innumerable.

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How many of those deities told us the universe was stretched out.

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Most of them.

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That is expansion.

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No, that isn't. What was said was that the universe was big. What was never mentioned was that it was still expanding.

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How many of those deities told us the earth was going to melt with fervent heat one day.

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A lot of them. As Robert Frost wrote:

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How many of those deities told us there were wandering stars?

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All of them. What do you think the word "planet" literally means?

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How many of those deities told us there were stars that had gone dark and remained dark forever?

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Most of them.

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Science calls them a white dwarf.

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Incorrect. Dwarf stars of all colors still shine...just not as brightly. Why do you think they call them "white" dwarfs? Compare that to "brown" dwarfs.

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How many of those deities told us all the nations would be able to see dead bodies lying in the streets in Jerusalem?

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All the ones that hold Jerusalem as an important city.

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Science calls that technology.

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Incorrect. Science says nothing about dead bodies in a specific city.

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The deity Buzsaw is talking about told all those things thousands of years ago.

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So that would be the god of Islam, right?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Hi Rrhain, I am told that we know what happened from T=10^-43.I am also told that GR breaks down at this point and can not tell me what if anything is before T=10^-43.You are the mathematician so what does the math say?I am not a mathematician but I heard somewhere figures don't lie.If the numbers break down and can't tell us anything then I must conclude there is an absence of anything at T=0.Anything between T=0 and T=10^-43 is unfalsifiable.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Rrhain,ICANT writes:

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How many of those deities told us the stars were innumerable?

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Could you be a little more specific? Like their names or the books that their prophesy is in.Let me get one thing out of the way here. I claim the God of Abraham. Islam also claims the God of Abraham. The deities I need to know about are all the other deities refereed too.

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Science has a lot of guesses.

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I can not find anywhere that science says there are a finite number of stars. There is no way to count all of the stars. Stars are born all the time so, how can they have a finite number?

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How many of those deities told us the universe was stretched out.

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Could you be a little more specific? Like their names or the books that their prophesy is in.

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That is expansion.

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I don't know where you got your information from but it was not from the Bible I read where God said: "even my hands have stretched out the heavens." Isaiah 45:12 Also Jeremiah 10:12 says "he (God) hath stretched out the heavens by His discretion.

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How many of those deities told us the earth was going to melt with fervent heat one day.

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Was Robert Frost a deity or a poet. He can say anything.

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How many of those deities told us there were wandering stars?

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Are you saying the example of the star leaving the Milky Way, outcast, is a planet?I know it is not a self-luminous gaseous celestial body.I could still use their names or the books that their prophesy is in.

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How many of those deities told us there were stars that had gone dark and remained dark forever?

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Science calls them a white dwarf.

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I goofed and misworded. I should have said going dark and will remain dark forever. That is what a white dwarf will do when it becomes a black dwarf. Since the universe is supposed to go on expanding forever that will happen.

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How many of those deities told us all the nations would be able to see dead bodies lying in the streets in Jerusalem?

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I could still use their names or the books that their prophesy is in.

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Science calls that technology.

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I did not say science said anything about dead bodies in a specific city.I did say science calls it technology for all nations to be able to see dead bodies lying in the streets.If you have a TV (technology) you can turn it on just about anytime of the day or night to CNN which uses a lot of technology to get pictures from around the world. I have seen many dead bodies on TV from the middle east.CNN even carried the Gulf War live on TV.

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The deity Buzsaw is talking about told all those things thousands of years ago.

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Since their God is the God of Abraham and Moses by their claim it would be the same God. This speaking for myself I will let Buzsaw speak for himself.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Even if they are born and die all of the time, there is still a finite number at any given point in time. I can in no way count the number of grains of sand in the world, and the number is always changing, but there is still a finite number of grains of sand in the world.

No, you must not conclude anything. You do not know my middle initial; from that, conclude my middle name. Please, you’ve got to explain this to me:In the philosophy of science all parts of a valid hypothesis must be falsifiable. If it weren’t we’d not be able to tell if it were real or rubbish.For a hypothesis to be falsifiable it has to have certain characteristics, not the least of which is having been made. As no hypothesis has been made for the time interval 0T10^-43 no hypothesis can be falsified.To what end do you move by constantly repeating that a nonexistent hypothesis is not falsifiable; which, thought true, is exceedingly trivial?

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KindlyTa-da ≠ QED

Nobody seriously believes the stars are innumerable. Too many for a human being to count? Sure. Not too many for a computer.But aside from that, it's hardly rocket science to look at the sky and say "gee whiz, there sure are a lot of stars up there. i don't think I could count them all." You're making a gigantic leap in assuming that your religious text's flowery language and poetry somehow corresponds to science. Again, you're making a huge leap in assuming that the flowery language and poetry of the Bible somehow correspond to scicne, [i]especially[/]i in light of how many things the Bible gets flat wrong. Biblical prophecies don't bear any resemblance to an actual red-giant type of event. They refer to what could conceivably be nuclear war or volcanic eruptions of meteor impacts, but not stellar expansion. Hell, the timescale is way off - I thought it was supposed to happen soon, ICANT, not in a few billion years.And once again, you're making that gigantic leap in asuming that poetry and flowery language refer to science. I'm not even sure of the passage you're referring to with this one. But then, the planets look like stars from Earth without telescopes, and they "wander." Hell the night sky rotates seasonally due to the changing perspective from Earth. Your particular religion is hardly the only group to have noticed this - there were entire belief systems arranged from observations of stellar movement.Once again you imply "the Bible knew it first." Once again, you're wrong. As usual. There are many reasons stars go dark, ICANT. Black holes would be one of them. But again, stoneage observers can notice that they can't find a given star for any number of reasons - such as the object not being an actual star at all.And besides that, you're still making that giant leap and assuming that flowery language somehow corresponds to modern science. Once again with the massive logical leaps. The authors of the Biblical texts wrote poetry and flowery language and vague references to events that can be interpreted in hundreds of different ways.You compeltely ignore that half of even what you just said is completely wrong. The stars are not innumerable, for one.But how about the "pillars of the Earth?" What about the "circle of the Earth?" What about referring to pi as being equal to 3?What about global Floods and 6-day Creationism and a 6,000-10,000-year-old Earth?In one sentence you claim that the Bible predicts science, and in the next you'll deny that the Bible has any inaccuracies. You aren't even self-consistent, ICANT. Does the Bible agree with science or not?As for how many of the thousands of other religions have made similar descriptions, I have no idea - I don't make a serious study of thousands of religion's ancient poetry, scouring flowery language for things that might bear a hint of resemblance to something in modern science. Do you?Or do you only look in your Bible for such loose connections, and disregard all others?You're using typical apologetics, ICANT, and trying to smash the evidence to fit your pre-made conclusions. That only works when you're preaching to the choir.God Bless,

Rahvin. I just want to back you up on this one.I haven't any idea what ICANT's talking about either, but he's not the only one making an asinine assertion of this magnitude re: stars.There's a girl on CARM arguing -- with all seriousness -- that there are no planets, only stars. Because the bible said so. http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php

Hi Rahvin, If I remember correctly you told me that the pea sized universe that began to expand was like a balloon with ants or dots on it. If expansion is true the universe had to expand in all directions equally.How wide is the universe? If I remember correctly the last time Percy pointed this # out to me about 3 months ago Wikipedia had 74 billion light years across. It is currently stating 93 billion light years across. That is what is visible today.ABE I did not remember correctly it was 92 billion light years wide.The latest estimates says that the universe is at least 156 billion light years wide.I will use Percy's numbers. If someone with the same equipment as we have was 46 billion light years (1/2 of 74) in forward of our position, what would he be able to see?If the balloon analogy is correct He should be able to see 46 billion light years forward.If this was repeated approximately 289 times the person at position 289 should be able to see the point we are at.If that was the case the balloon would have an area of 6,647 billion square light years.I think the stars in that area would approach being innumerable.If it is 156 billion light years wide it would have an area of 19,113 billion square light years. How about we deal with the items presented, instead of what you think is flat wrong. Unless you want to present them. Lots of flowers in that, but I can't find the poetry. Don't sound like nuclear war or volcanic eruptions of meteor impacts to me. Looks like it disappears in a ball of fire to me.There ain't no flowers or poetry there. I called attention to a particular star called outcast that is leaving the Milky Way traveling at 1.5 million mph. But I was not giving reasons for them going dark. I was asking for references or books from the other deities that told us there was wandering stars that would go dark forever.What giant leap in: "to who is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever"? What flowery words, or poetry? Please explain the leaps in this. That says these dead bodies will lay in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days. It says the kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies. It also says they that dwell earth shall see them and rejoice over them.This was not possible until the TV Satellite system was in place. It is now possible as I watched the Gulf War on CNN. You are the only one doing any smashing here. I gave you point blank statements from the Bible. There is no poetry there and there is no flowerly language.I will ignore all your other rants for the time being.God Bless,Edited by ICANT, : To correct universe width attributed to Percy.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi SGT, OK I got no problem with that. Thanks for the answer.My point was that they were innumerable. That simply means there are too many to be numbered. To number them you would have to count them. Not extimate them.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."