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Author | Topic: "transitional" turtle found | ||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
We're Sorry - Scientific American
Pictures of one of the fossils and an artist rendition, plus:
quote: Once again, adaptation of existing hardware Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Welcome to the fray, Cluim,
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by wondering what creationists have to think about this... sounds like you're implying this would disprove it, or creationists would be put off by this? Probably because creationists have asked for years for fossils of organisms with partially formed features, thinking that this is a necessary element of transitional development of what they conceive to be macroevolution. This is an organism with a partially formed feature - it only has the bottom shell and the center of the top shell. This not only fills the bill for a fossil with a partially formed feature, it actually demonstrates that evolution works by incremental steps with fully functional living organisms at every stage, and it shows that "macroevolution" is nothing more than "microrevolution" carried out over many generations.
I don't think any reasonable creationist is arguing against microevolution. It exists. Period. There's tangible and undeniable proof, and it in no way contradicts creationism. There is also no different mechanism, no different process, for "macroevolution" than we see, observe, document and agree about being involved in "microevolution" -- it is just the same evolution carried out over generations. The only reason you have different organisms, rather than all one kind of organism, is because of speciation -- where isolated populations evolve on different lines due to (a) different mutations within their subpopulations (b) no mechanism to share new mutations with the other population (c) different environment for each population means different selection operating on mutations -- until a point is reached where they do not see the other population as potential mates. Note that:
We just don't believe monkeys became men, and other macroevelutional appeals that indeed have evidence, but don't have proof. Unfortunately for you, nature is completely unimpressed with your opinion, nor is it restricted in any way from continuing to behave according to the natural laws of life, regardless of what you - or anyone - believe to occur or have occurred. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hello again Cluim,
I'd draw the same line in correlation to how I'm learning about it in my college Biology class; ... Excellent start.
... microevolution referring to small changes over a long time, and macroevolution referring to large changes ... For macro, I'd use the same example I said before,... Evidence to accept what I defined as macroevolution would be plausible enough evidence that is there to define microevolution. Pardon me if I quibble, but I don't see what your definition of "macroevolution" involves. What is "large" change compared to "small" change? Does it occur in one generation or over many? As a guide I would point to university definitions, such as this one from Berkeley University:
quote: Note that they divide small scale change as being within a breeding population, and that "large-scale evolution" occurs via speciation where subpopulations diversify from a parent "common ancestor" population. and this one from the University of Michigan:
quote: So what we see is that "large scale change" occurs by "small scale change" within populations as they diverge from other populations.
Evidence to accept what I defined as macroevolution would be plausible enough evidence that is there to define microevolution. We have findings of of species and such within short periods of time (i.e. just decades to maybe so many hundreds of thousands years at tops) that we can say are the same and pinpoint small changes in them gradually over millions of years, but when something like trying to say the skulls of apes gradually turn into man? Most the skulls trying to say this are carbon dated and separated by MILLIONS of years apart! What about within these MILLIONS of years? They are TOO far apart to connect. Who is to say they weren't just a new and died out species? Within those millions of years you have genetic changes that are not as distinct. Often the early fossils of one "species" are not that different from the later fossils of a previous "species" - it is just that humans have drawn an arbitrary line to divide the fossils for ease of reference. In addition, evolution is not a steady state process, but occurs in fits and spurts, especially in response to environmental changes. Thus we see a fossil of an organism that is intermediate in form from a non shelled toothed creature to a shelled and toothless early turtle, an organism that demonstrates the accumulation of hereditary changes over time, or what evolutionary biologists define as macroevolution.
As an exercise, can you draw a line between hominid ancestor Australopithicus africanus (second skull, next to the modern chimpanzee skull) and modern human?
At what point is there too much difference to account for with the variation we see in humans living today? Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : hide off topic portion on human evolution Edited by RAZD, : space by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Good stuff Cluim,
I'll by no means be close-minded to evidence, yet to a degree, I guess I am ultimately close-minded at the end. Consider that an open-minded skeptic does not accept any position without reason, and is willing to discard any concept that is contradicted by evidence.
I look forward to further future discussion--probably still in this board, but as Anglagard said, not straying as far from the OP as we may already have. We can always start a new topic on whatever interests you. If you want to discuss the issue of how much change is "large" change for instance, we could go through a review of the Dogs will be Dogs will be ??? thread. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
No problem Cluim, looks like we are crossing posts.
I'll def check it out and read it over a little more carefully later though, ... Just remember that the way evolutionary biologists study evolutionary biology is with the terms defined within the field of evolutionary biology. If anyone tries to use a different definition for a term, then they are really talking about a different concept, and this leads to confusion. Using a wrong definition, then can lead to logically invalid conclusions, when mixed into a discussion. Enjoy. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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