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Author Topic:   Some Questions Concerning the Eden Texts, etc.
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4400 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 1 of 23 (512748)
06-20-2009 2:35 PM


Thank you for the discussion.
Hope all is well EvC ...
In light of BobAliceEve's request per Message 120 within the thread YEC without the bible, possible?.
BobAliceEve writes:
I am not, for this discussion, concerned about scientific support, however ...
I am curious as to what the prevailing thinking is here (i.e, established scriptural support) on the following ...
quote:
1) Did Adam and Eve evolve or were they created?
2) When God took them into the garden were they a basic family?
3) If created, were they subject to physical death?
4) Was the tree of life not mentioned as a concern along with the tree of knowledge of good and evil because it was not a concern because they were already immortal?
5) Is the tree of life the antidote to either the physical or spiritual death?
6) If they were a basic family and not subject to death would they live forever as a family?
7) Is the Messiah's mission to restore to it's original state what God created or to change things?
8) When Isaiah says that the lion will eat hay like the ox will that be a restoration of what was before the fall or will that be a change?
9) Is this knowledge valuable to a discussion regarding how the age of the earth is thought of?
10) ...?
A few more answers may pop up but this would be my starting point.
Respondents are encouraged to address each question (1-9, etc.) specifically ...
Admin, please, admonish in what ways this topic may gain promotion.
If promoted as is ... Bible Study please.
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : sp.
Edited by Bailey, : sp.
Edited by Bailey, : sp.
Edited by Bailey, : sp.
Edited by Bailey, : They weren't all spelling errors ... it's just easier to write 'sp.' in the op.
Edited by Bailey, : simplify

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe ...
Tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
Why trust what I say when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Bailey, posted 06-27-2009 12:46 PM Bailey has not replied
 Message 7 by ochaye, posted 07-27-2009 1:19 PM Bailey has not replied
 Message 10 by bluescat48, posted 07-31-2009 11:46 AM Bailey has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4400 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 3 of 23 (512872)
06-21-2009 10:39 PM


Some basic gardening tips ...
Thank you for the exchange.
Hope things are well ...
It is very common for people to suggest a wide variety of inferences from the Eden narrative are readily available. Often times, as we exercise our imaginations concerning these texts, as is so frequently the case, the intentions are harmless, and at others, the outcome is as well. However, as long as these texts have been circulating, it seems as though they are not often understood within the context that they were written or, perhaps, intended.
Honestly, even translators themselves have historically taken to unsound liberties in translating the ancient Hebrew writings due to the great chasm between Old Hebrew and English. There is modern inductive linguistics research suggesting that the term 'Adam' refers to humanity in general, and so, this interpretation is diametrically opposed to the traditional accepted meaning of the term referencing a specific male individual at a specific place in time.
At this point, it should come as little surprise that a good portion of forum members here at EvC agree, while some obviously do not, that the Eden text is often blatantly misinterpreted in order to allow for the seemingly endless inferences that tend to be applied through the variety of doctrines and dogmas which are associated with the multitude of traditions attempting to take root in the Garden. Some fertile soil for story telling perhaps ...
On a basic level, one may note that the story was first delivered to an original audience and spoke to their culture and surroundings. Within Message 161 of the thread entitled 'If the Bible is metaphorical then perhaps so is the God of the Bible', purpledawn shares that 'The plain text provides a simple story. Man obtains the knowledge of good and bad, which would have been consistent with the knowledge of the culture of the audience.'
Along those lines, later in that thread, it was stated that the authors of the narrative were describing, in poetic, proverbial, and metaphorical form, the creation of the human species that is fully endowed with the mental faculty of reason (the knowledge of good and bad), as well as the mental faculty of creative intellect (the imagination). These two mental faculties enable humans to manipulate their God-given natural environment.
Now, in doing so, human society becomes agrarian and urbanized - humans till the ground from which they were taken (Gen. 3:23), and the first 'tent-village' becomes the mother of all inhabitants (Gen. 3:20). These advancements in the civilization of mankind, however, come with a price. First, humans begin judging their Creator and the creations, thus causing them to believe they are separate from Him. Eventually they begin judging one another.
As a consequence of implementing the 'Knowledge of Good and Evil', the human species must begin exploring outside the Garden In Eden, at the risk of leaving behind almost all hope of reaching the 'Tree of the Life'; which the species has been told 'guards' the way back to it's Father's garden. Thus, mortal human existence begins spreading across the earth and eventually subdues it. A hint may begin to describe the way back to the Garden.
The 'cherubim' and the 'flame of the sword', which turns every way, both 'keep' as well as 'preserve' the way to the 'Tree of the Life'.
Of course, this is only one basic interpretation, but it may begin to suggest what types of information may, perhaps, be safely gathered from the Eden texts without over indulging ourselves. Yet, even this simple interpretation will be dissuaded by various orthodox traditionalists, as well as others, for employing a modern approach provided for by recent determinations in linguistics which identify 'Adam' as 'mankind' and 'Eve' as the first 'tent village.'
That said, perhaps we can explore some questions ...
1) Did Adam and Eve evolve or were they created?
Within ToRaH, the Hebrew word bara' is translated as 'create' and, of course, it's most prolific use is first identified in Gen 1:1. In a theological sense, this verb is often taught to mean 'something brought out of nothing' or 'something brought into existence', which, assumedly, was not in existence previously. Now, you see, the thing is, this interpretation is based upon our familiar friend who, although not completely reliable, we have all come to know and love:
Stoneage human intellect.
Yet, quite frankly, the inference does not hold in all technicality, unless, that is, we suppose that all things did not spring forth from the Word of God which IS God. The idea that something or anything came from nothing may contradict the nature of the Father and most, if not all, laws of science (not theories). As such, the science o' religion has, for centuries, been faced with two bottom lines. Either something came from nothing, or something always was.
I go for the latter, however, for all intents and purposes, the scriptures are written to mankind and for mankind, and so, from the very first verse the Father called the heaven and earth, along with the materials for all things visible and invisible, into existence in the beginning. Another literal meaning of the word bara' is to 'open up' or to 'bring into tangible existence' and, from our point of view, it seems the heavens and the earth had a beginning.
So, while this may seem to indicate that, a time once was, when there were no Lovebirds to disrupt the Garden In Eden, does it necessarily mean that they were brought forth from nothing? Again, perhaps, from our point of view one may say yes. Yet, what were they before they were 'opened up'? Perhaps no one knows, but the creation came from One who always was. This isn't to imply that all things had spiritual existence before they had physical existence ...
More simply, I'm suggesting all things come from the Word of the Father which has always been.
lol - hope that helps!
One Love

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4400 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 6 of 23 (513302)
06-27-2009 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bailey
06-20-2009 2:35 PM


mortal brute breath breathing animals
Thank you for the exchange.
Hope things are well ...
3) If created, were they subject to physical death?
4) Was the tree of life not mentioned as a concern along with the tree of knowledge of good and evil because it was not a concern because they were already immortal?
Any lack of disclosure regarding the Tree of the Life does not seem to revolve around a premise of innate immortality.
The Hebrew word for 'dust' of the ground (Heb. עפר , Gk. χοος choos: dry loose earth) is employed in Gen. 2:7, which may enlighten the reader/hearer to the idea that The Eden narrative is proverbial. The material that mankind is formed from within the narrative also seems to indicate that the Deity (יהוה אלהים) needn't be anthropomorphized into an anthrōpos (Gk. ανθρωπος : a human being). One may also note that 'dust' is a substance of the ground which would not exist after the whole surface of the ground is 'irrigated', as happens to be the case in Gen. 2:6, and it is, as well, a substance of the ground that typically defies being 'formed', as it is in Gen. 2:7. lol - golems are supposedly conjured from mud, not dust ...
Now, in the same way that the entire human species, male and female, are addressed collectively in Gen 1:27 (את־האדם), the continued employment of the Hebrew term throughout Gen. 2:7, 8, 15 & 3:24 (את־האדם) logically denotes the entire human species as well. So, when 'the archetype of the human species' (האדם) receives the 'breath of mortal life' (נשׁמת חיים) in Genesis 2:7, it receives nothing more or less than every other 'breathing brute animal species' (נפשׁ חיה). Such an interpretation is in clear accordance with the BDB Lexicon of the Old Testament (pg. 659), as well as in Genesis 7:22 - all creatures that inhabit the dry land are endowed with the Father's 'breath-spirit of mortal life' (נשׁמת־רוח חיים).
Therefore, 'the archetype of the human species' (האדם) is indeed, from the very moment of its initial inception ...
A mortal brute animal that is subject to physical death.
Indeed, 'original sin' need not apply.
One Love
Edited by Bailey, : sp.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bailey, posted 06-20-2009 2:35 PM Bailey has not replied

  
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