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Author Topic:   LAVA - Lossy Adaptation Via (Natural Selection) of Alleles (Explained)
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 5 of 51 (525626)
09-24-2009 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AChristianDarkly
09-23-2009 11:55 AM


And Your Point Was?
You appear to be trying to convey the fact that you are immensely ignorant of biology: but your schizophasic mode of expressing yourself makes it rather unclear what your argument is.
It looks like you've taken a handful of standard creationist lies ("No beneficial mutations", "Mutation only decreases information", "No evidence for evolution") and padded them out into over six thousand words, mainly gibberish.
May I ask why?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AChristianDarkly, posted 09-23-2009 11:55 AM AChristianDarkly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by AChristianDarkly, posted 09-24-2009 3:06 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 11 of 51 (525812)
09-24-2009 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by AChristianDarkly
09-24-2009 3:06 PM


Re: And Your Point Was?
Is the def for evolution acceptable?
No. You define evolution as "(some) natural process(es) which results in BOB+."
In the first place, it is certainly not the definition of evolution used by biologists; and if you wish to talk about something other than what biologists call evolution, then I suggest that you think of another name for it. You can't just hijack an existing word with an existing definition and fly it wherever you want to go.
In the second place, it would not be useful as a definition of anything, because BOB is not quantitatively defined. Unless you can tell us how to measure the amount of BOB in a genome or a gene pool, how are we to know if any given event involves BOB+, BOB-, or conservation of BOB?
If the def for ‘adaptation’ (with the understanding that the def is internal to the gibbering) acceptable?
You do not formally define adaptation. But from your remarks I understand that you wish to limit the concept to the action of natural selection in removing existing alleles from the gene pool.
In that case, no, your definition would not be sufficient. For if a brand-new allele arose through mutation which was adaptive, and therefore favored by natural selection, and which therefore spread through the gene pool --- that too would be an adaptation: it would be a change in the gene pool making the population better adapted.
Is the point surrounding the basically irrational manner in which ‘instructional’ simulations are made, mostly OK?
No. Your complaint seems to be that people simulating evolutionary processes ... simulate evolutionary processes: that is, they build into their programs features such as (at a minimum) reproduction, variation, and competition. Well, of course they do. Because what they want to know is what happens under those circumstances.
You might as well complain that people simulating the Earth's weather build in such things as the positions and shapes of the continents, the rotation of the Earth, Boyle's law, the physical properties of water and so forth. Well, of course they do. The essence of simulation is that you build a simulation of the processes that you wish to simulate. That's what makes it a simulation.
Most of all what motivated me was this: it is commonly held that ToE is ‘so easy to understand’ you need only slightly more than half a brain to understand it. Also, that the ‘proof’ for it is so clear, that only a nitwit will fail to accept it. (Unless I am mistaken, this is your view too, correct?
No. Many people fail to understand it, and I would not say that they are all "nitwits". However, I would say that the failure is theirs: whereas the great cry of creationists seems to be: "Evolution is so stupid that I can't understand it".
The no-evidence for evolution ‘lie’ is not a lie. It is a fact, if you were to accept the framework given.
Any "framework" that requires me to close my eyes to the facts of nature is not readily going to win my acceptance.
As for mutation killing BOB, that is not really what it was my intension was to convey. I suppose I do seem to say so here and there. The view I tried to bring over, strongly, is that the natural chaos which drives/ describes the 2nd law, is killing BOB.
But for "natural chaos" to "kill BOB" it must use some sort of weapon. Abstract concepts such as "chaos" are, well, abstractions. The things which affect genomes and gene pools are such things as mutation, recombination, lateral gene transfer, selection, and drift. If these things, in total, do not "kill BOB", then BOB is alive and well.
However. As the title of the post would suggest, my main point (I assume in free for all there is no more main point, oh well) was that natural selection is, itself, busy killing BOB, in huge allele-sized chunks at a time.
And when you have managed to quantify BOB, we shall be in a position to see, first of all, whether this is true, and secondly, whether any other genetic processes increase BOB.
'Til then, your point is moot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by AChristianDarkly, posted 09-24-2009 3:06 PM AChristianDarkly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by AChristianDarkly, posted 09-27-2009 8:07 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 51 (525843)
09-24-2009 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Minnemooseus
09-24-2009 9:24 PM


Re: Evolution resulting in increased complexity
Subbie, I must disagree on this tidbit. What ASD is saying is that, as time passed, biological evolution resulted in an increase in complexity. I see this as a fact of evolution, not an aspect of the theory of evolution.
Well quite. It may be a fact of evolution that (overall) complexity has increased, but it is not definitional. In the same way, we can't define democracy as being the process that made Obama President, even though that is in fact one of the results of that process. But it is not defined by that result: it was also democracy when other people became President, and would have been democracy if McCain had won, and would not have been democracy if Obama had lost but then used his vast army of winged monkeys to install himself as President. Democracy is defined by the exercise of the popular will, not by some specific outcome that did in fact take place.
In the same way, it is also evolution when evolution causes complexity to decrease; and it would not be evolution if there was some natural process whereby rocks turned into aardvarks, even though that would be a natural process that increased complexity (or BOB, whatever that is).
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-24-2009 9:24 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by AChristianDarkly, posted 09-27-2009 10:22 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 42 of 51 (527008)
09-30-2009 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by AChristianDarkly
09-27-2009 10:22 AM


Re: Evolution resulting in increased complexity
Does this render my gibberish more comprehensible?
I'm afraid that your meaning is still deeply cryptic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by AChristianDarkly, posted 09-27-2009 10:22 AM AChristianDarkly has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 315 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 46 of 51 (527189)
09-30-2009 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by AChristianDarkly
09-30-2009 1:17 PM


Re: The F@ck You Johnnies Post
Both subbie and DrA are, simply put, lying about the intelligibility of the Tome of the Demon.
I was not aware that I had mentioned it. Oh look, I didn't.
(Incidentally, I am quite certain this is why both subbie and DrA are absolutely refusing to read the Tome of the Demon. This is why they so are so deeply allergic to defining something like 'ordered complexity' {aka BOB for short}, from the fossil record.)
Uh ... hello. Earth to strange guy. It is you who have failed to define your term "BOB" or "ordered complexity", while I have repeatedly asked you to do so.
It's your term, you define it. Then, and only then, can we talk about it.
Coupled to this, both subbie and DrA started saying that everything that I was posting was indicative of a kind of insanity. Not that I am not eloquent, but that I am insane.
No, I wouldn't go that far.
But you write as though you're insane. It's not that you're merely "not eloquent", it's that you're anti-eloquent. The way you choose to write seems almost designed to convince people that you're off your head. If this is not a sign of mental disturbance, but rather a free choice that you have willingly made, then my candid advice to you is that you should stop.
If you feel that you have something genuinely new and important to say to the world, you should try to say it in such a way that the world won't think that you need stronger medication.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by AChristianDarkly, posted 09-30-2009 1:17 PM AChristianDarkly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by AChristianDarkly, posted 10-01-2009 1:43 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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