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Author Topic:   Evolutionary History of Apes
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1052 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 20 of 25 (537682)
11-30-2009 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by pandion
10-14-2009 12:43 AM


Re: Knuckle walking
I can only conclude that knuckle walking is a derived trait that has been lost in humans and retained in related species. Otherwise we are postulating that gorillas first separated, then chimpanzees (and then chimpanzees separated into two species) from the lineage that lead to mankind. Additionally we are postulating that after all of these separations, all of them developed identical structures that lock the wrist. After that, the lineage that led to humans lost this mechanism. We know that "Lucy" was a biped. Why on earth would that species have developed this wrist walking mechanism along with the three other species, only to lose it again. Is it not more logical to understand that the wrist-locking mechanism was vestigial in "Lucy"?
There are less complicated and tortorous routes which would acheive the same thing. The common ancestor of humans, chimps and gorillas would have been a knuckle walker. Whilst the ancestors of gorillas retained this feature, the ancestors of chimps and humans began to develop bipedality. Some of these bipeds, however, which would include the ancestors of chimps, began to get back down on all fours as their ecology demanded, and whilst they still retained enough of a knuckle-walker's anatomy to not make this prohibitvely unlikely. They'd still have the protusion on the radius, as demonstrated by the fact that it's retained in bipedal Lucy, so there's no need for this to be evolved again.
I don't know how realistic this scenario would be based around the anatomy of the fossils we know, but I don't think humans and chimps sharing a bipedal ancestor requires the wrist-locking mechanism to evolve three times independently - it still only needs to arise once. Knuckle-walking as a whole could have evolved once, been lost once, then been subsequently regained once, by an ape still in possession of some of the features that made their ancestors successful knuckle-walkers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by pandion, posted 10-14-2009 12:43 AM pandion has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 11-30-2009 8:02 PM caffeine has not replied
 Message 24 by pandion, posted 12-01-2009 12:48 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1052 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 25 of 25 (537850)
12-01-2009 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by pandion
12-01-2009 12:48 AM


Re: Knuckle walking
So the development of a trait in an ancestor, the loss of that trait in descendants and then the redevelopment in subsequent populations is less complicated and tortuous?
Less tortorous than the same trait evolving independently in three separate lineages, yes. The key point being, though, that it doesn't need to be lost and regained in subsequent populations. It need only be lost once, and regained once.
quote:
Does anyone actually believe that knuckle walking was lost and regained by any of the species?
I have no idea; I just don't see grounds for dismissing it as ludicrously improbable. As you've pointed out, at least one of the traits essential for knuckle-walking - the wrist locking mechanism, was retained long after hominids had become fully bipedal, so it's not as if everything had to be re-evolved from scratch. And it's not like lost traits aren't regained in some lineages. To reprint one of RAZD's favourite diagrams:
Here we see 5 different cases of lineages of wingless insects with winged ancestors regaining wings. Lost ancestral features are sometimes regained, so there's nothing ridiculous about the argument a priori. If our molecular dates are right and bipedality precedes the human / chimpanzee split, it's definitely worth considering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by pandion, posted 12-01-2009 12:48 AM pandion has not replied

  
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