Theocracy alive and well in Utah (and considerations of the death penalty)

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The point is, of course, that you can never be sure enough to kill someone.[

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Crash, you are sitting at the table playing cards with a friend. Someone walks in the door, pulls a gun, and puts a hole through your friend's head. How sure are you?------------------
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You know the killer. You grew up with him. He said, "Howdy," when in walked in the door-- then killed your friend. The point is, you claim it is NEVER possible to be sure. It is possible.------------------
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Respectfully, crash, you are playing the creationist's "its only a theory" card. You and I both know we can't get absolute certainty on anything. But it is special pleading to give that fact increased relevance in one case. The science is the same. The evidence is the same. The logic is the same.I haven't checked his figures, but if Rhhain's cost analysis is accurate then that is good enough reason to eliminate the death penalty. It is a nice and neat pragmatic reason-- no need to get into this messy morality and theory of knowledge.------------------
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No, what gives it special relevance is that a person's life is on the line.

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I'd consider that the case anyway. I fail to see why life in prison is considered the more humane option.

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Death is absolute.

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Yes it is. So is life in prison. You can't take that back either, if you've made a mistake. And what consolation is that? "Oops, we're sorry. You didn't do it after all. But at least you lived a full life-- caged in a little cell." Sorry. That doesn't work for me.

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I don't think it's unreasonable to expect absolute knowledge if you're going to absolutely execute someone.

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If the issue hinges on the irreversibility of captital punishment then by the same logic, you should require absolute knowledge if you are going to remove someone's dignity forever. Any sentence to prison is irreversible and will haunt the convicted until death-- whether guilty or innocent and pardoned.------------------
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hypothetical situations can be used to argue anything

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Indeed. When I wrote what I did to crash, I was hoping for the response I got-- "but maybe he had a twin or someone just looked exactly like the guy I know." That sort of thing. It is the creation of scenarios unsupported by evidence. In other words, it is the falling prey to unreasonable doubt. It there is reasonable doubt, the accused should not be convicted at all. If unreasonable doubt is acceptable then there is no way to convict anyone of anything.

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but our judicial system doesn't allow for a scale of confidence.

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Yes, it does. It is called 'reasonable doubt.'

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where would the cut off point be in certainty be?

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Where is it now?The problem, of course, is that every case is different. There really is no way to draw a line. This is the reason for a jury trial instead of trial by the judge or some other officer. The idea is that if the jury reaches consensus, that is the best we can do-- not that I do not have objections to much of the process.But where is the cut-off? Obviously there is such a thing. Crash claims there is not and that is the point to which I object. Take Dahmer-- bodies in the fridge. It is hard to get more certain. Crash, it seems to me, would propose a whole string of objections to cast doubt. "Maybe the police planted the evidence." "Maybe some other person is the killer and was using Dahmer's apartment." "Maybe..." It really is the casting of unreasonable doubt. Scenarios with no evidence don't count.

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i think cash is right in that in the real world the death penalty just doesn't work.

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That may be, but not in all cases for the reasons crash proposes.

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just like communism...

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Lol... I am pretty sure we'll get there eventually, but it isn't going to happen by revolution and it isn't going to happen anytime soon. It will take a mental change, not a political one. That is another topic anyway, and it is just a guess. It is one of those things which make me want to live a thousand years, just to find out it works the way I expect.

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on a bit of a different topic, i see the judicial system as a means to protect society first and foremost.

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Absolutely.

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punishment isn't really a means to protect society unless it's used as a form of rehabilitation.

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This I can't accept. Sequestering criminals protects the rest of us, whether rehabilitation is a result or not.------------------
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what i mean is there is no scale that goes from innocent to guilty with different point in between.

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We do have a scale of charges, however. One could be charged with manslaughter, or with first or second degree murder.

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The problem comes when you have a distinction between a conviction because there is no reasonable doubt, and a conviction because there is absolute certainty.

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There is no absolute certainty with anything. I can't be absolutely sure that I am typing right now. So it is really a moot point. Absolute certainty is impossible. That is why I consider it special pleading.

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so separating criminals from society protects society... but that says nothing about ending the criminal's life.

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No it doesn't. It wasn't intended to address the issue. It was a specific response to a specific statement you made.

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any form of punishment beyond their separation from society is unwarranted unless it is used to rehabilitate.

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This is a conclusion issued without argument.------------------
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I expected better of you, crash. The only reason I have for posting is the feedback. "Duh!" is pretty useless feedback.------------------
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