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Author Topic:   I Don't Understand the Israel/Palestinian Problem
Rei
Member (Idle past 7042 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 50 of 57 (57801)
09-25-2003 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Silent H
09-25-2003 2:01 PM


Did you hear the latest news? I assume you're familiar with how a number of cities have literally been turned into prisons, by building huge walls around them, complete with massive sniper towers that loom over all of the buildings and give Israeli troops clear shots into people's homes and along most streets. And now they're encompassing the entire west bank, minus the parts that they're annexing for even more settlements (including a good portion of all of the farmland) with a similar wall. Well, check this out:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/343513.html
They're now going to be doing their killing by remote controlled machine guns. Given the number of civilians (especially children) already killed by snipers using their *own eyes*, this is horribly disturbing.
Of course, most people are unfamiliar with the number of Palestinian civilians killed - and especially wounded in the conflict. That the number of Palestinians killed is about 2 1/2 times the number of Israelis killed, and that the Israeli army has admitted that less than half of the Palestinians they killed were involved in any sort of resistance movement. And that the proportion of Palestinians children killed is notably higher than the proportion of Israeli children killed (in addition to the overall higher numbers). And that Nablus was kept in lockdown (I.e., you can only leave your house for a few hours per week, children can't go to school, you can't go to the hospital even for giving birth, etc) for over 100 contiguous days at one point this year.... or that Hamas had offered a cease fire, and less than 24 hours later, Israel bombed an apartment block... or are aware of the number of homes bulldozed, the acres of trees bulldozed, the shelling of the Rafah water supply (where they already divert the majority of the water to the illegal settlements which have tiny populations by comparison).... and haven't seen the pictures of the trashing of various ministries (such as the education and health ministries, including things like defecation in the buildings and graffiti over childrens' drawings), the trashing of radio stations... you know, I should stop, otherwise I'll go on all day.
It's sad how little most people know about the conflict. Most people aren't even familiar with what Barak's "Generous offer" entailed.
When little children grow up where among their first words is usually 'jaish', and know how to deal with tear gas in the eyes by age 6 (answer: onions), where the majority of adult males (fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers) have been arrested at one point or another in a sweep... there's something horribly wrong. And people wonder how this leads to violence...
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 09-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Silent H, posted 09-25-2003 2:01 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Silent H, posted 09-25-2003 11:59 PM Rei has not replied
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 09-26-2003 9:39 AM Rei has replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7042 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 53 of 57 (58016)
09-26-2003 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by crashfrog
09-26-2003 9:39 AM


Certainly, Crash. I always back up my statements.
I'm having trouble findin a current count of Israelis killed and wounded, but last I checked it was about 850 killed and 4,400 wounded.
For Palestinian deaths, we turn to the Red Crescent: 2,471 deaths and 23,582 wounded.
File Not Found
The Palestinian govt. puts the number of wounded notably higher, at 43,468:
Forbidden
I was kind in saying "less than half" (I didn't have the exact number on me at the time) - the actual number is 23%:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=336075
(Haaretz is a major Israeli newspaper).
Would you also like the estimates of damage done to the economies and infrastructure of the two countries?
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by crashfrog, posted 09-26-2003 9:39 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7042 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 56 of 57 (58902)
10-01-2003 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Buzsaw
09-30-2003 11:45 PM


quote:
Of course, it doesn't take too much smarts to understand why Israelies must needs keep the upper hand in the struggle as it rages today. They are surrounded by nations, numbers and armies about 20 to one, all pretty much hostile and willing for their demise
Yeah, and it's not like they have one of the strongest armies on the planet and are surrounded by some of the most outdated armies on the planet, have 100-400 nuclear weapons versus zero, have a first-world economy....
quote:
It's either a step ahead all the time for them or death and destruction.
The only people at risk of being utterly destroyed over there are the Palestinians. Sharon has personally advocated what is known as the "final solution" - the ethnic cleansing of the territories by forcing everyone into Jordan. The Palestinians have already been shoved into such a small area that the Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated locations on Earth. They're forbidden to bear arms, and are up against one of the world's most powerful militaries.
You do the math about who is likely to be destroyed.
quote:
When offered all his demands on a platter by Barak, Arafat said something like "Go to Hell."
Ah, "Barak's Generous Offer" rears its ugly head again. Do you have any clue what was in "Barak's Generous Offer"? As of 1967, many of Palestine's people (which now number about 16 million) had been driven out of the country, off of their land and our of their homes, to live as refugees. The remaining population had been driven into 22% of the country. After 1967, from the remaining 22%, Israel began colonizing with settlements. While Gaza Strip is essentially one giant prison refugee camp, some of the West Bank remained slightly in tact. The settlements and now the wall will soon have eroded almost all of the remaining farmland. The settlements are a miniscule portion of the West Bank's population, but take half its water.
Barak's offer first took 10% of the West Bank, and outright hands it to the settlers. This 10% snakes across the entire country, segmenting it. However, not segmented enough. Then, there's the 10% "temporary control" line which, with no time limits and no reason to ever give it back (also containing settlements), might as well be included in the first 10%. It further segments the country into little pieces that are virtually impossible to travel between. Not enough, however. Barak's offer then places settler roads and checkpoints, complete with guard towers and buffer zones, which take away whatever hope of traveling between parts of the country they might have had left. In exchange, Barak offered them a chunk of barren desert which Israel had previously used as a nuclear waste dump.
Do I even need to go into the restrictions that Israel also placed on the Palestinians?
quote:
Israel is not on any school maps in Palestinian schools and never will be
Funny you should mention Palestinian schools. Don't worry, the kids won't see the maps very much, because Israel caused the near complete closure of schools during much of the Intifada. They teargassed several schools which attempted to open. Nablus was kept in lockdown for over 100 days contiguously at one point.
BTW, are you aware of the number of Palestinian Christians there are? You should talk to some of the people from the many Palestinian Christian churches in the occupied territories, and ask them what *they* think of what is going on. Want me to connect you with one? You could then ask them yourself how the Israeli army treats them and their churches.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 09-30-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Buzsaw, posted 09-30-2003 11:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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