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Author Topic:   Social Unrest?
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 25 of 109 (587332)
10-18-2010 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Jon
10-18-2010 11:42 AM


Re: Resources and Inflations
Monetary policy of the fed controls inflation. It is only a problem if the price for the goods rise with the increase in wages. Keep the price of the goods stable. Cut into the outrageous disparity between executives and low wage earners and the mega profits of those corporations.
Everyone 'champions' inflation. No economist champions deflation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Jon, posted 10-18-2010 11:42 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by frako, posted 10-18-2010 1:07 PM DBlevins has replied
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 10-18-2010 1:19 PM DBlevins has replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 59 of 109 (587597)
10-19-2010 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by frako
10-18-2010 1:07 PM


Re: Resources and Inflations
do to the system in place deflation is bad for the economy thouhg good for the people in short term.
Deflation is bad for the people because it can lead to a fall in demand which can lead to the lay-off of personnel and so on until you get into a deflationary spiral. It also can force a liquidity trap when investors start hoarding money instead of investing it stiffling the creation of new jobs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by frako, posted 10-18-2010 1:07 PM frako has not replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 60 of 109 (587601)
10-19-2010 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
10-18-2010 1:19 PM


Re: Resources and Inflations
LOL. Sorry, but that is backwards. Inflation happens when there is more money in circulation today than there was yesterday without a comparable increase in goods/services between yesterday and today. Increasing wages increases money in circulation. If goods/services do not increase price comparable to that increase in circulating money, then those goods/services will cost more and the real value (amount purchasable per unit) of money decreases.
LOL. I'm not sure where your confusion begins. I understand that inflation is the rise in the price of goods/services over time. I am suggesting that the profit be shifted toward the worker end of the spectrum which does not mean an increase in the price of the goods. There is no net increase in the amount of money in ciculation and no need to increase the price of the goods.
DB writes:
Cut into the outrageous disparity between executives and low wage earners and the mega profits of those corporations.
What is the effect of this?
A return to the prosperity of the post-war and pre-reagan economy.
DB writes:
Everyone 'champions' inflation.
I sure don't. LOL
Then I guess you don't like to see the value of your assets and investments increase. Sucks to be you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 10-18-2010 1:19 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Jon, posted 10-19-2010 8:01 PM DBlevins has replied
 Message 63 by Damouse, posted 10-20-2010 8:41 PM DBlevins has replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 67 of 109 (587954)
10-21-2010 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Jon
10-19-2010 8:01 PM


Re: Resources and Inflations
Huh? What caused post-war prosperity?
What is your explanation for the boom in the American economy when the top marginal tax rates were in the 90's? Do you feel that a larger tax base doesn't allow the government to spend more domestically, thus providing more job opportunities? You believe that leveling the playing field has no effect on GDP?
It has been shown that rising tax rates do not have a negative effect on GDP.
Then you misunderstand. This isn't the thread for discussing these things, though. You're welcome to start one if you want; I'll meet you there.
No I don't. Inflation is what I said it is. I didn't say anything about the cause of inflation. You are discounting the effect that economic growth has on mitigating the effect of an increase in money supply. If you have a lower rate of economic growth and an increase in the money supply, then yes that will cause sustained inflation. You're also discounting the effect that the Fed's monetary policies has on controlling inflation. (How do they take money out of the system? )
Of course there is. Poor people spend their money; rich people save it. It is not the amount in existence as a whole, but the amount in circulation. Rich or poor, a man only eats so much bread.
What effect does people spending money have on economic growth and how does that effect the inflation rate? A clue is above.
As a side; I typo'd in my previous message: It should read 'If goods/services do not increase comparable to that increase in circulating money, then those goods/services will cost more and the real value (amount purchasable per unit) of money decreases.' I tried combining two thoughts into one statement and it came out muddled. Perhaps this will clear up confusion. (I'm editing the message in question as well.) Apologies for this mistake.
I admit I had a hard time discerning what you were trying to say there but I gathered what you meant so no worries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Jon, posted 10-19-2010 8:01 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Jon, posted 10-21-2010 5:39 PM DBlevins has not replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 68 of 109 (587957)
10-21-2010 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Damouse
10-20-2010 8:41 PM


Re: Resources and Inflations
WHAT?
Inflation is not good. Inflation is loss of stability of a monetary system.
Without inflation the value of your assets do not increase. You seriously want the value of your property and investments to stagnate or deflate?
Perhaps there is some confusion here. Who is advocating hyperinflation? I am certainly not by any means.
A low to moderate rate of inflation is good for you and the economy.
DB writes:
A return to the prosperity of the post-war and pre-reagan economy.
By what mechanism?
Do you disagree that having a larger tax base to rely upon allows the government to spend more within the domestic economy? Do you think that the government can not create jobs as well as increase the productivity of the poeple by spending on them?
Edited by DBlevins, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Damouse, posted 10-20-2010 8:41 PM Damouse has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Damouse, posted 10-21-2010 3:32 PM DBlevins has replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 73 of 109 (587994)
10-21-2010 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Damouse
10-21-2010 3:32 PM


Re: Resources and Inflations
I asked you to detail what mechanism you thought led to prosperity, and you posed two questions to me. Hmm.
Perhaps you didn't catch my meaning. One of the ways to increase prosperity is implied in the question.
Inflation. Does. Not. Increase. Asset. Value.
The value of an asset is independent of money. Money is a measure of that value.
Commodities and other hard assets DO appreciate in value with inflation. Why do you think they are used as a hedge against inflation?
As a piece of paper you are absolutely correct that it has little value, but money is not just a measure of value it is also a medium of exchange. That is why it has value independent of its actual worth. Because it is in limited supply and we both wouldn't mind having more of it in order to satisfies our wants and needs.
I dont know of any school of economic thought that advocates that. Its just not true, either in practice or in theory. Why? How can it be true?
Let me be clear that when I generally speak of inflation I am talking about a low rate of inflation. Most mainstream economists would agree that that is good for the economy.
Why?
Because it can give people debt relief for one. If you owe a debt at a fixed nominal interest rate and inflation increases, you will actually be paying a lower rate over time. We also lower the risk of liquidity traps, as well as the impact of recessions, and an insentive to investment in capital projects.
NO, government cannot raise productivity by throwing money at the workforce. That doesn't make sense.
What happens when the government decides to give you a nice bonus tax refund check. Why and when would they do that? What are people likely to do with that check?
[qs]The end product of an economy is product. For the record, i agree that the war caused prosperity, but not at ALL by the same way you mean it. The government took a large chunk of money from the economy that could have been used to make products for the use of the citizens, and instead that money was thrown into tanks and bullets, which were eventually expended.
The gov't diverted production of capital or consumer goods into military goods, which did not increase prosperity.
For the record, when I say 'post-war' I mean after world war 2.
As a side note, what was one of the consequence of military soldiers coming home from the war with those big fat paychecks?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Damouse, posted 10-21-2010 3:32 PM Damouse has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Jon, posted 10-21-2010 8:23 PM DBlevins has not replied
 Message 80 by Damouse, posted 10-22-2010 4:25 PM DBlevins has not replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 76 of 109 (588000)
10-21-2010 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Damouse
10-21-2010 7:38 PM


Re: An Example
No. Inflation is when more money becomes active.
That is not really correct. The price for goods can increase independent of the money supply and an increase in M does not automatically cause inflation, though it obviously can. It depends really on whether you are talking about low or high rates of inflation. Low or moderate rates of inflation can be due to drops in output, thus lowering supply of products and therefor increasing their value in the economy. (Think of the Oil shocks of the 1970's and 80's) It can also be due to an increase in demand for products beyond the ability of the economy to produce said products.
No. Inflation is when more money becomes active.
Inflation is the rise in prices over time. One [underline]cause[/underline] of inflation can be when more money becomes active.
(Global warming is NOT greenhouse gases. Global warming is the increase in the aggregate temperature of the planet. Greenhouse gases can cause Global warming but not necessarily the only cause.)
NO. HELL no. See above equation.
Inflation by itself does not raise demand. Period. Especially small constant inflation. Generally when you relate inflation with demand, its the demand that causes the inflation, known as "demand-pull" inflation.
I don't believe that is what he said, though. Having more money (increasing M) can have the effect of increasing demand. That is why governments in recessions dole out the dough. They want to increase demand and thus increase the products produced in response to said demand. It may very well lead to inflation, but that is what you want when you are in a recession.
Read my other two posts where i state in no uncertain terms that value is not tied to money. At. All.
You would be right if you were valueing money based on its inherent properties, but you're wrong in that there is meaningful value to money because it is what we use as a medium of exchange and people like you and me want to have it.
For example, if i offer you 100 euros for your pencil, you may assume your pencil has a value of 100 euros, which may or may not be true. If i then offer you 139.12 USD for your pencil, under your mindset the value of your pencil has gone up, because i am using an inflated currency.
Let's put it this way. If Jill offers you 100 dollars for your pencil and I offer you 135 dollars the next day, what would that mean about the value of my dollar versus Jill's?
No. A million times no.
The nominal market price of his labor is increasing, but the real price of his labor remains the same. His value does not change.
What do you mean by the 'real' price of his labor? How does an increase in demand for his labor not increase the value of that labor?
Think about how absurd what you're saying sounds. If you take your pencil and put it in a drawer for 10 years, it will become more valuable as an asset? What sense in the WORLD does that make?
What sense would it make if increasing demand for pencils does not increase their value?
For the last time. Money doesn't mean value. Assets dont necessarily rise in value if they rise in price. Ignoring all other considerations, inflation is bad for the sole reason that people like yourself think that greater prices mean that you are becoming richer, and act according to that mindset.
Inflation is not inherently bad. We want to have some amount of inflation. While poeple may confuse wealth with inflation, I do not believe that is the case here.
For the last time, Money has value.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Damouse, posted 10-21-2010 7:38 PM Damouse has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 10-21-2010 11:08 PM DBlevins has replied

  
DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3805 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 79 of 109 (588161)
10-22-2010 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Jon
10-21-2010 11:08 PM


Re: An Example
To ease congestion I thought I would combine my response to Jon.
Post 74
I assumed this was the case when I replied to you earlier. You never addressed the issue.
I never addressed the issue because I never said I was talking about during the war, but afterward. Your question didn't seem relevant to my statement about the economy, unless you could be more clear about why you bring up the economy during the war versus the economy after.
Certainly wasn't money spent on condoms...
Flippant but perhaps I deserved that. M increased, but what happened to the economy?
No, they COST more; their VALUE does not change.
Jeebus. I'm not sure if we are talking around each other or you are purposely being obtuse.
Do the checks increase or decrease the amount of money in circulation? In our example, does it move us from E1 to E2, or from E2 to E1?
It depends on what they do with it, wouldn't you say .
Let's get back to the real world. We expect that if the economy is working properly, an increase in monetary supply will cause inflation, but it will also likely cause an increase in productivity, which has the effect of eventually suppressing inflationary pressures. Of course any large shock due to pricing caused by supply and demand pressures or any shock induced by monetary policies can induce either hyperinflation (bad) or stagflation (bad) but if everything works and there are no shocks then most economists would agree that having that little bit of inflation is a good thing.
Small condolence, since the money left over is now worth less than yesterday.
Not if your purchasing power has not been significantly affected, which would be the case when productivity has increased. You're telling me that you would rather pay 6% interest on your house than you would 4%?
Now on to post 78
It is less.
But this is off-topic, really. We should start an inflation thread.
Not necessarily. While I agree that prima facie it would appear to be the case that my dollars are worth less, that would be the case IF everything else cost more as well. It might even lead to inflation if this happened in significant portions, but this is a one time occurence where the value of the dollar remains the same, it is the subjective value of the pencil that has increased. If you can buy more things because you sold that pencil for more, the dollars value with respect to your purchasing power has basically remained the same.
I am tending to disagree that this is off-topic, in the sense that this topic seems relevant to the opening post, (I was tracking toward wage pressures and inflation but perhaps I was being too slow to begin) and so I will gladly shift back toward the topic of Phats post if that is what people want. I am sure wage pressures and inflation will turn up again.
With that in mind, he did ask you:
Phat writes:
Jon writes:
Perhaps current attention will finally start getting underway certain measures required to fix the problem we have been creating for the past several decades.
I then asked:
What solutions do you propose, Jon? (in other words, what measures need to be undertaken?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 10-21-2010 11:08 PM Jon has not replied

  
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