Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,912 Year: 4,169/9,624 Month: 1,040/974 Week: 367/286 Day: 10/13 Hour: 1/1


EvC Forum ⇒ Side Orders ⇒ Coffee House ⇒

Reverse Placebo Effect

Thread ▼ Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Reverse Placebo Effect
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

Normal Thread Display
Message 5 of 28 (601239)
01-19-2011 11:17 AM 		Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
01-19-2011 9:19 AM

...
​
Edited by Panda, : Cancelled post. Needs more thought.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 01-19-2011 9:19 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

Normal Thread Display
Message 13 of 28 (601380)
01-20-2011 7:17 AM 		Reply to: Message 12 by Rrhain
01-19-2011 11:47 PM

Rrhain writes:
​
So since there doesn't seem to be a placebo effect, it stands to reason that there is no converse to it.
And this from Wiki...
quote:
Since the publication of Henry K. Beecher's The Powerful Placebo in 1955 the phenomenon has been considered to have clinically important effects. This view was notably challenged when in 2001 a systematic review of clinical trials concluded that there was no evidence of clinically important effects, except perhaps in the treatment of pain and continuous subjective outcomes. The article received a flurry of criticism, but the authors later published a Cochrane review with similar conclusions (updated as of 2010[update]). Most studies have attributed the difference from baseline till the end of the trial to a placebo effect, but the reviewers examined studies which had both placebo and untreated groups in order to distinguish the placebo effect from the natural progression of the disease.
I do not see the confidence that you are giving to the non-existence of the placebo effect.
Instead, I see scientists continuing to do research, and discussing contradictory results.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Rrhain, posted 01-19-2011 11:47 PM Rrhain has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 01-22-2011 12:20 AM Panda has replied
  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

Normal Thread Display
Message 23 of 28 (601616)
01-22-2011 6:33 AM 		Reply to: Message 21 by Rrhain
01-22-2011 12:20 AM

Rrhain writes:
​
I certainly understand the need to do more study and some of the findings about how the brain works and how it can affect the body are fascinating, but the simple fact remains that comparing treatment-to-placebo and then declaring a placebo effect begs the question: It presumes that which is being claimed. Then there is the problem of the original claim: Beecher only included positive effects. That is, in his study of placebo, he only reported those who had improvement: Those who got worse were simply ignored.
I am glad that you agree with me that the certainty conveyed in your previous post is inappropriate.
Good.
​
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 01-22-2011 12:20 AM Rrhain has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Rrhain, posted 01-22-2011 7:37 PM Panda has replied
  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

Normal Thread Display
Message 25 of 28 (601669)
01-22-2011 8:52 PM 		Reply to: Message 24 by Rrhain
01-22-2011 7:37 PM

Rrhain writes:
​
They performed a deeper study and found the same thing: There is no placebo effect.
Excellent.
So every scientist has abandoned all research into placebos and, in fact, the word placebo is no longer used.
To be honest, the odds of the mind having any effect on the body was pretty unbelievable.
I will await the deletion of the 'placebo' Wiki page.
quote:
This view was notably challenged when in 2001 a systematic review of clinical trials concluded that there was no evidence of clinically important effects,
except perhaps in the treatment of pain and continuous subjective outcomes.
Oh wait...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Rrhain, posted 01-22-2011 7:37 PM Rrhain has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 01-23-2011 1:04 AM Panda has replied
  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

Normal Thread Display
Message 27 of 28 (601689)
01-23-2011 6:35 AM 		Reply to: Message 26 by Rrhain
01-23-2011 1:04 AM

When in Rome...
​
Rrhain writes:
​
Things like pain perception, that makes sense since pain is a mental perception and thus based in the brain.
No! No!
The placebo effect CANNOT work!
It has been proven to not exist!!!
​
Rrhain writes:
​
OK...I'll wait. I'll wait for you to read my original post which pointed that fact out.
I think your confirmation bias is too far gone, else you would understand that even your own quotes undermine your argument.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Rrhain, posted 01-23-2011 1:04 AM Rrhain has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Rrhain, posted 01-24-2011 1:51 AM Panda has not replied
  
Date format: mm-dd-yyyy
Timezone: ET (US)
  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024