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Author Topic:   Hyperbole in the Bible
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 40 of 124 (639956)
11-05-2011 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by purpledawn
11-04-2011 9:12 PM


Re: Why Hyperbole
PD writes:

People don't seem to have a problem recognizing hyperbole in writings classified as nonfiction

This is because non-fiction is (by definition) based on reality.
If you claimed that someone "jumped higher than a house" in non-fiction then it would be hyperbole - because it is impossible.
If you claimed that someone "jumped higher than a house" using a trampoline then it becomes difficult to know if it is hyperbole - as it could be possible.
If you claimed that someone "jumped higher than a house" in 1% gravity then it is not hyperbole - as it is easily possible.

PD writes:

but apparently do in more creative works.

The way you judge if something is hyperbole is by comparing it to reality and seeing if it matches.
But this becomes very difficult in fictional works, as it is already established that reality is not being closely followed.

Was Superman "able to leap tall buildings in a single bound" or was he simply able to jump higher than any normal man?


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by purpledawn, posted 11-04-2011 9:12 PM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 46 of 124 (640002)
11-06-2011 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by purpledawn
11-06-2011 2:53 AM


Re: Still Clueless
PD writes:

Since you feel that I still haven't addressed your point, I apparently still don't know what your point is. Sorry.

Maybe it would become clear if you describe how you identify if a statement is hyperbole?
From reading your opening post, it seems like you are taking the IDist's stance of "I'll know it when I see it."

You appear to be saying that you can compare myths/fiction to reality and automatically know which bits can be identified as hyperbole because they don't match reality.
But the very definition of 'fiction' involves aspects of it not matching reality (and which are not hyperbole).

So: how are you differentiating between 'myth' and 'hyperbole'?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by purpledawn, posted 11-06-2011 2:53 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2011 8:47 AM Panda has responded
 Message 60 by Jon, posted 11-09-2011 11:05 PM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 53 of 124 (640296)
11-08-2011 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by purpledawn
11-08-2011 8:47 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
PD writes:

Hyperbole is a type of figurative language. This is a way to use words to enable the audience to create an image in their mind. To do this the storyteller has to keep to what his audience will understand. For an audience to understand an exaggeration, it has to be exaggerating the reality that they know.

This still does not actually describe how you identify hyperbole, but maybe if we can work through an example it will become clearer.

PD writes:

If you disagree that a verse I've shared is hyperbole, then explain why you feel it doesn't fit the bill and provide support for your conclusion. Don't pick Noah's age because I've already yielded on that one twice.

Considering how few suggestions of hyperbole you have shared, there is not much to choose from. May I suggest another?
quote:
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Is this hyperbole?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by purpledawn, posted 11-08-2011 8:47 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 6:48 AM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 62 of 124 (640479)
11-10-2011 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Jon
11-09-2011 11:05 PM


Re: Still Clueless
Jon writes:

How else does one recognize figurative language?

How would you identify hyperbole in the bible?
How would you differentiate 'hyperbole' from 'extraordinary truth'?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Jon, posted 11-09-2011 11:05 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Jon, posted 11-10-2011 11:47 AM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 67 of 124 (640489)
11-10-2011 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by purpledawn
11-10-2011 6:48 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
purpledawn writes:

Yes, I would consider Genesis 7:19 to be hyperbole.

All hills, whole heaven. It was a very bad flood.

This rather goes against what I thought was the accepted understanding of the flood.
If not all hills were covered then many people/animals could have survived on the uncovered hills.
(I would suggest that it would have been a better idea for god to have told noah to build a wooden building on one of those hills rather than an ark.)

So, how do we decide between your claim of hyperbole and other people's claim of accuracy?
What are you using to decide the Genesis quote is hyperbole, when others simply see a statement of fact?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 6:48 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 9:37 AM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 70 of 124 (640503)
11-10-2011 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by purpledawn
11-10-2011 9:37 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
PD writes:

As I said in Message 1, this thread is not about what Christianity teaches. It is about what the text says.

So, how do we decide between your claim of hyperbole and other people's claim of accuracy?
What are you using to decide the Genesis quote is hyperbole, when others simply see a statement of fact?

If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 9:37 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 11:25 AM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 74 of 124 (640541)
11-10-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by purpledawn
11-10-2011 11:25 AM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
Panda writes:

So, how do we decide between your claim of hyperbole and other people's claim of accuracy?
What are you using to decide the Genesis quote is hyperbole, when others simply see a statement of fact?

PD writes:

Asked and answered.

No, you have not answered this.
You can tell that you have not answered this by the number of people in this thread asking you to describe how you are deciding if things are hyperbole or not.

PD writes:

How do you determine hyperbole in any other book you read. It's your turn to explain.

If you want to argue the position that the verse is fact, then make your argument.

You are claiming that the verse is not fact, but when asked to explain your claim, you say "Prove it is fact!".
If your intention in this thread was to say "The following bible phrases are hyperbole. Prove me wrong!" then I think you are shifting the burden of proof to the wrong people.

Panda writes:

I'm not going to debate against a position not presented by a participant.

But you are the one who is meant to present a position.
And since you are reluctant to do so, I am finding it difficult to debate that position with you.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 11:25 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 3:10 PM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 75 of 124 (640542)
11-10-2011 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Jon
11-10-2011 11:47 AM


Re: Still Clueless
Jon writes:

When I see hyperbole, or any other figurative language, I'll know it.

How?

And do you think that "I'll just know" is a 100% reliable method of identifying hyperbole?

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Jon, posted 11-10-2011 11:47 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Jon, posted 11-11-2011 12:59 PM Panda has acknowledged this reply

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 79 of 124 (640574)
11-10-2011 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by purpledawn
11-10-2011 3:10 PM


Re: Identifying Hyperbole
PD writes:

One last time: My position concerning the verses I share is that they contain hyperbole.

Ok - Let's looks at the first one you provided:
quote:
2 Kings 18:5 - Hezekiah trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel. There was no one like him among all the kings of Judah, either before him or after him.

2 Kings 23:25 - Neither before nor after Josiah was there a king like him who turned to the LORD as he did--with all his heart and with all his soul and with all his strength, in accordance with all the Law of Moses.


Your claim:
PD writes:

The above verses are simply an exaggerated way to say they were good kings. We use similar exaggerations when complementing people.

The fact that people use similar exaggerations does not mean that these verses are exaggerations.

Opening Post writes:

I would like to look at various passages considered by some to be contradictions or absolute statements and see if hyperbole comes into play.

Your argument is: the bible contains hyperbole and the bible shouldn't contain contradictions therefore any contradictions are probably hyperbole.
But there is no evidence relating to specific verses: you are left with nothing but 'wishful thinking' assertions.

If you do not have anything solid to support your claim that those particular verses aren't simply contradictions then there is nothing to discuss.
All you are doing is stating a subjective opinion.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 3:10 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 8:56 PM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 83 of 124 (640602)
11-10-2011 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by purpledawn
11-10-2011 8:56 PM


Re: Great Kings
PD writes:

Sorry, that is not my argument.

Then you have provided no argument at all.

Panda writes:

The fact that people use similar exaggerations does not mean that these verses are exaggerations.

PD writes:

The fact that you said that doesn't mean they aren't either.

Good. We agree. The fact that people use similar exaggerations offers no support for you claims.

PD writes:

Absolutes tend to be exaggerations. (No, I didn't say that all absolutes are exaggerations.) IMO, the audience would understand it as a compliment.

You are guessing which absolutes are exaggerations.
You are guessing what the audience would understand as a compliment.
Your opinions are not supporting evidence to your claim.

PD writes:

So what is your support that they should be read literally and be considered contradictions?
Really if you do understand them literally, they still aren't contradictions because each individual is unique. Each king is going to have his own style and foibles.

If the verses are not contradictory, then why are you trying to identify them as hyperbole? That is why you listed them!
And again, you try to shift the burden of proof.
If you are claiming that they are hyperbole, then you need to support that claim and not commit the fallacy of Appealing To Ignorance (useful link).

PD writes:

That was just the opening post. What did you expect, a dissertaion?

No - I expected you to support your claims with more than just wishful thinking.
And since that first post you have made many other posts and they also contain no support for your assertions.

PD writes:

How is hyperbole determined in any other book we read?

I have asked that question several times and all you have managed is "We have to look at what is written." - which is as much use as the IDists claim that they will recognise design when they see it.

So far, your claim of being able to show that certain verses in the bible are hyperbole has proven to be untrue.
All you have been able to do is say: "I think this verse is hyperbole. Prove it isn't."

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 11-10-2011 8:56 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 11-11-2011 7:22 AM Panda has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2003 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 88 of 124 (640642)
11-11-2011 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by purpledawn
11-11-2011 7:22 AM


Re: Great Kings
PD writes:

The fact that you haven't told me how one detects hyperbole in other books we read, tells me you probably don't know.

The burden of proof is on your side. You are making the claims.
Your comment should be directed at yourself: The fact that you haven't told me how one detects hyperbole in the bible, tells me you probably don't know - which is a problem as you claim that you can.

PD writes:

Just from the responses so far, even in nonreligious writings we have a difference of opinion on what is understood as hyperbole. That 's what it boils down to, opinion.

Fine.
But opinion is neither argument nor evidence.

PD writes:

Declaring that my arguments are just my opinion, doesn't negate my argument.

I am not saying that your arguments are opinions.
I am saying that your opinions are not arguments: they are just assertions.
If all you have is opinion then you have no argument.

PD writes:

Since this is a debate forum, the opposite position is that the sentence is not hyperbole. If, and only if, you are taking the opposite position and feel that the sentence is not a hyperbole, then yes you do need to provide support for that reasoning.

You have provided no support for your claim. You have only bare assertions.
And, as you should know by now, "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence".

PD writes:

If you don't plan to support a position and just want to critisize, then we have nothing to debate.

My position is that you do not have any reliable way to differentiate between hyperbole and fact.
All you have is "It looks like hyperbole to me!" which is little more than wishful thinking.

PD writes:

All we can do is provide support for our reasoning concerning the opinion we present.

Your subjective belief regarding the nature of the verses is just that.

PD writes:

So please stop acting like there is some absolute correct answer out there.

Ok - so there is no correct answer.
Well, that makes your whole thread pointless.
Is a verse hyperbole? No-one knows.

/thread


If I were you
And I wish that I were you
All the things I'd do
To make myself turn blue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 11-11-2011 7:22 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

  
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