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Author Topic:   Considerations of Christ's Resurrection
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 1 of 33 (69087)
11-24-2003 9:51 PM


Christianity begins with the claim of a miracle - the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The author of more than two thirds of the N.T. - Paul the Apostle says that if Christ be not risen we are liars.
Yes, indeed, there are only two options: We christians are liars or we are telling the plain truth - there is nothing in between.
The N.T. says God will provide ONE sign - the sign of the prophet Jonah, which Jesus interpreted as being His death and resurrection. If Jesus rose from the dead then this miracle is the greatest event in history.
First of all, if you do not believe Jesus lived then it is irrelevant to debate if He rose from the dead. Roman historian Tacitis admits He lived. We must assume that Jesus lived and that He died or this debate is pointless.
Anyway, to those who can assume the necessary facts to have this debate read on please.
The entire case for the resurrection stands or falls on the veracity of the eyewitnesses - the Apostles. Did they tell the truth or did they make the whole thing up ?
There are a lot of sources of information about the Apostles - a lot, and in these sources there is one common denominator, which is that all of the Apostles died believing and maintaining that Jesus was alive that He rose from the dead. Of all the sources available about the lives of the Apostles not a one of them ever even suggests that they did not die for the testimony of the risen Christ.
The best scholarship agrees that Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas offers the single greatest piece of evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.
All of the sources about the Apostles and their deaths are in complete agreement : They all died a horrible martyrs death, and they died ALONE.
Thomas Aquinas says it is INCONCEIVABLE that each of the Apostles would die alone in a remote part of the world for a lie.
If together in any amout of 2 or more it is plausible that they would maintain the lie, but that wasn't the case. They each died a horrible martyrs death alone for the testimony that Jesus rose.
In each case all they had to do was recant and be let go and their fellow apostles would never know they recanted. Obviously N.T. times had no modern communication abilities. If one apostle were to falter under the threat of death and recant none of the others would ever find out. But this is not the case history records that the Apostles died alone and each died a horrible martyrs death - ALL FOR A LIE ?
Nobody is going to die a martyrs death alone for a lie especially with the escape hatch of recanting available. This is what history records in unison about the Apostles of Jesus.
The Apostles told the truth, they were honest eyewitnesses of the risen Christ and they reported what they saw.
The veracity of the witnesses is confirmed by the circumstances in which they died.
How does any of this evidence creationism ?
Before Jesus died He predicted His death and resurrection which if true validates as true everything else He said.
Jesus said " All authority in heaven and earth is given unto Me". Paul said that Jesus existed eternally that He was the speaking agent by which God spoke the universe into existence..."universe be"....universe was, and there you have the first cause.
P.S. Please spare me any slanderous Jesus Seminar arguments. The J.S. are dishonest atheists posing as honest scholars, and don't accuse me of saying all atheists are dishonest - I didn't say that. And please keep the non seqiutors to a minimun.
Sources of Information : the teaching of Dr.Gene Scott PhD Stanford University {Pastor Melissa Scott presents Dr. Gene Scott - The Official Site}

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-24-2003 9:57 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 3 by Eta_Carinae, posted 11-24-2003 10:07 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 4 by Eta_Carinae, posted 11-24-2003 10:12 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 5 by Asgara, posted 11-24-2003 10:37 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 6 by Asgara, posted 11-24-2003 10:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 8 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 11-24-2003 10:45 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 9 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-25-2003 7:09 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 26 by :æ:, posted 11-26-2003 6:44 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 10 of 33 (69272)
11-25-2003 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by IrishRockhound
11-25-2003 7:09 AM


Reply to Irish
Irish : Please re - read the last section of my topic, in it you will find that I answered your question. Paul the Apostle in the N.T. said that Christ existed eternally , that He is part of the Godhead, that when God created the universe He spoke through the Son when He actually did it. This also gets into the the trinity debate of which I do not want to get in to, however I am a protestant christian and we do believe that Jesus always existed - that is basic christianity doctrine. If Jesus rose IF that is , then His statemment that all authority in heaven and earth given unto Him makes Him God, the O.T. and its revelation of the law of God was a shadow , a type of the substance that cast the shadow which was Jesus. God killed the law when Christ died and exalted His Son as His promised reward for securing redemption for those who resond to it. Thank You.

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 12 of 33 (69278)
11-25-2003 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Eta_Carinae
11-24-2003 10:12 PM


Reply to Eta
Eta : You just assume me a fundementalist - I am not. A fundie is the bad element in any given good. My mind is wide open and I know how to listen. I always agree to disagree, and I can respect what anyone says as long as they can tell me what they believe and why they believe it.
The Jesus Seminar are a body of dishonest scholars using their educational credentials to legitimize a fraudelent destruction of the basic doctrines of the Church. It doesn't matter what they claim they are , they are christian hating atheists who want to mainstream a fallacy, a fallacy that simply declares Jesus never said 90% of what He said, and their entire basis for this dishonest claim is because of their previously held beliefs that miracles do not exist, that the divine does not exist. Christianity begins with the claim of a miracle - the miracle of the resurrection of Jesus. The J.S. do not believe that miracles exist or happen and they will not even entertain the idea or look at the evidence. Therefore how objective and fair can a group of pseudo- scholars be to a religion that bases its entire existence on a miracle ? The J.S. create a Jesus who never existed for the one purpose of slandering the Church that they hate.

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 13 of 33 (69281)
11-25-2003 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Eta_Carinae
11-24-2003 10:07 PM


Towards the end of my topic I posed the very question "How does any of this evidence creationism ? " Then I answered the question, did you some how miss it ?

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 14 of 33 (69284)
11-25-2003 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Dan Carroll
11-24-2003 9:57 PM


OK lets just assume one apostle or disciple says there were 4 women at the tomb, and another says there were 3, or maybe one says he saw Jesus in Jerusalem and another says he didnt, but the message was that He would meet them in Galilee, none of this has nothing to do with the subject of my topic and the central claim that Jesus rose from the dead. None of the parties involved ever disputed that He rose from the day of Pentecost on. If they were wrong then it still doesn't explain how all of them could be wrong and die alone for something that didn't happen. Thank You.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-24-2003 9:57 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-25-2003 8:42 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 16 of 33 (69298)
11-25-2003 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dan Carroll
11-25-2003 8:42 PM


Negative, you are the one saying some died for an "untruth" The whole point and intent of the evidence I offered says they died telling the truth of what they saw -the risen Christ.
There are NO contradictions in the resurrection passages , if you think there are you are mistaken and need to listen to someone in the know. If you want list one of them and we will debate it. Glad to read your response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-25-2003 8:42 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Asgara, posted 11-25-2003 9:33 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 21 of 33 (69443)
11-26-2003 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Adminnemooseus
11-25-2003 11:59 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
Why are you arbitrarily re-naming my topic and who is Dan and if he is doing me a favor why am I not happy ?
Towards the end of my topic I said "How does any of this evidence Creationism" and then I proceeded to answer that very question, did you miss it, you must of because your unjustified censorship is negating my entire point. I deserve an answer. W.T.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 22 of 33 (69445)
11-26-2003 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Adminnemooseus
11-25-2003 10:21 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
What makes you think the originator agrees with you ? I do not. This is so infuriating , did you bother to read what I said in my topic , that part where I say "How does any of this evidence creationism ?" I then proceeded to answer that rhetorical question. My entire point is to evidence creationism which I did. You either missed it or you so disagree with my point/evidence that you have decided to gut my entire master point. I do not understand what is going on here. If Jesus rose then this makes Him God and the creating agent that the Father used to speak the world into existence - this is what I said in my topic in diifferent words so how do you not understand that this is evidence for creationism ? I cant stop you from re-naming my topic but if this stands then this is pure unjustified censorship done under the guise of enforcing some loose subjective rules. W.T.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Rei, posted 11-26-2003 6:20 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 27 of 33 (69463)
11-26-2003 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Rei
11-26-2003 6:20 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
How many times now has some bleephole tried to convince me that some favor is being done . Have you graduated college ? And have you ever taken a course on listening or are you an expert in dishing out non sequitors ? When will someone acknowledge that my topic said the following sentence "How does any of this evidence creationism ?" Then I answered that very question. Now it seems the truth is creeping out, that a mob of atheists/darwinists are practicing the fine art of fundementalist scientism censorship. Why can't you dishonest humans posing as open minded intellectuals just say we cannot tolerate what you are arguing. No, instead you intentionally change the shape of the problem to be something that doesn't exist. I do not agree with anything you say and you are no different than Jerry Falwell - you are the bad element in any given good. You have censored out my master point that is not a matter of opinion.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Chiroptera, posted 11-26-2003 7:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 30 of 33 (69469)
11-26-2003 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Chiroptera
11-26-2003 7:14 PM


Re: Topic born off-topic
No the changes are not trivial , the renaming of my topic decapitates the whole reason I wrote it . This is not a matter of opinion, once again another person is defending the indefensible. Thank you for rationalizing censorship that is completely unwarranted. Now I know that this site is controlled by atheists/darwinists - now I know.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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