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Author Topic:   The black hole at the center of the Universe.
Taq
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(1)
Message 15 of 305 (699508)
05-20-2013 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peter Lamont
05-13-2013 2:10 PM


..from a huge cloud of hydrogen that went critical in the center (rather like Sol, but on a different scale.) I'm saying the Universe is finite, and anything finite has a Center of Mass.
Naturally, because Pressures and Temperatures were greratest at the center, the center evolved fastest, and black holes would have appeareed there first,
Why must the barycenter be the densest point in any finite system? The barycenter for the Virgo supercluster, the galactic cluster we belong to, is found in empty space and is not the densest point in the galactic supercluster.

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 Message 1 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-13-2013 2:10 PM Peter Lamont has replied

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 20 of 305 (699663)
05-22-2013 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Peter Lamont
05-21-2013 9:10 PM


Interesting question. Now, if there is such a thing as 'average density,' then the highest 'average density' will always be at the barycenter, Virgo Cluster included.
There is no such thing as the highest average in your system. There is only the average.
Perhaps we can use a teeter totter to help illustrate this. If you have two people of equal weight at an equal distance from the fulcrum of a teeter totter you can balance out the system, in effect putting the barycenter at the fulcrum. So where is most of the mass in the system? At the ends of the plank, not at the barycenter. Where is the "average density" found? At the fulcrum.
If,as I say, the Universe evolved from a huge hydrogen cloud, the simplest, most abundant element - then surely pressures and temperatures would be greatest at the barycenter (Center of Mass) and evolution would have been fastest there also?
That is not what the cosmic microwave background shows. Instead, matter and energy were spread out almost uniformly. The small fluctuations from perfect uniformity were also spread out all over the place, as you can see here:
Cosmic microwave background - Wikipedia
If, as you claim, there is a center to the universe and it was the most dense then we would expect to see that signal in this data. It isn't there. Instead, we see nearly the same level of energy coming from all directions, exactly what we would expect to see from an early universe where matter was evenly distributed.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 32 of 305 (699696)
05-23-2013 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Peter Lamont
05-22-2013 9:55 PM


At the barycenter, or fulcrum, the weight of both ends combine to the highest density on the teeter-totter. If I'm wrong, please show me!
Nope, the majority of the weight is a the ends of the plank, not at the fulcrum.

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 Message 33 by AZPaul3, posted 05-23-2013 2:56 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 34 of 305 (699713)
05-23-2013 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by AZPaul3
05-23-2013 2:56 PM


Re: Uhh ... Well ...
Be careful here, Taq, it was not what he was talking about, I know, but there isn't anything else holding up the plank and bearing its entire load.
The argument seems to be that there had to be a black hole at the center of the universe because the most dense point in any finite system must be at the barycenter. I was using a teeter totter as an analogy showing that this just isn't so. We could use real world examples like binary star systems as another example. We could use two figure skaters holding on to each other in a spin as another example.
This "average density" and the even funnier "highest average density" nonsense is just a way to ignore the obvious.

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 Message 37 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-23-2013 10:20 PM Taq has replied
 Message 47 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-25-2013 6:23 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 39 of 305 (699730)
05-24-2013 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Peter Lamont
05-23-2013 10:20 PM


Re: Uhh ... Well ...
Taq, the barycenter of a binary star system, even though there may be nothing there - has still the highest 'average density.'
There is no such thing as the highest average density. There is only the average density.
Like do you think the expansion started slowly and then accelerated? Or do you think the expansion started by accelerating, then slowed down and started accelerating again?
The initial expansion was extreme, and the subsequent acceleration has been slow in comparison. This picture speaks a thousand words:
The size of the cone shows us the size of the universe, and as you can see the size increased very quickly at the beginning.
Did you read my "Observational Evidence' right at the beginning? What do you think of it?
You are confusing gravity and expansion. One is not the other.
The fact of the matter is that space is expanding everywhere. From our vantage point, everything in the universe appears to be moving away from us (excluding galaxies speeding towards us because of gravitational attraction). But guess what? You will observe the very same thing no matter where you are in the universe. Space is not expanding from a central point. It is expanding everywhere at the same rate.
The balloon analogy is often used to explain this. Imagine if we took our three dimensional universe and chopped it down to two dimensions. We then make this two dimensional universe the surface of a balloon. As we inflate the balloon all points move apart from one another, and there is no center of expansion on the 2D surface of the balloon. That is how expansion works.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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 Message 69 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-28-2013 7:06 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 58 of 305 (699916)
05-28-2013 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Peter Lamont
05-25-2013 6:01 PM


I think the expansion happened only slowly at first, and has since accelerated. Now, what do you think of that?
I think this does not explain the observations. The observations are consistent with a much larger universe just 300,000 years (when the CMB was produced) after the singularity first started expanding. This requires a much faster expansion rate than what we see now. Your claims appear to be contradicted by the facts.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 59 of 305 (699918)
05-28-2013 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Peter Lamont
05-25-2013 6:23 PM


Re: Uhh ... Well ...
Taq, look, I don't know what is at the barycenter of the Universe - what I do know is that if there was nothing there, our rate of acceleration would decline.
Based on what evidence?

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 73 of 305 (699994)
05-29-2013 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Peter Lamont
05-28-2013 7:06 PM


Re: Uhh ... Well ...
Taq, Space isn't expanding. The Universe is a vortex, like the Milky Way, or Whirpool Galaxy, complete with a black hole at the center.
Based on what evidence?
We're going in, not out. Any 'accelerating expansion' is Inward. I show this clearly in my 'Observational Evidence' early in this thread.
I wish you would read it.
Where do you show it? Be specific.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 74 of 305 (699995)
05-29-2013 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Peter Lamont
05-28-2013 6:56 PM


Einstein denounced his 'Lambda' in the strongest language possible, calling it the graetest mistake of his career.
He denounced a lambda that was equal to the force of gravity for no other purpose than to prop up a static universe.

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 75 of 305 (699996)
05-29-2013 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Peter Lamont
05-28-2013 6:43 PM


Re: Context
Percy, any accelerating expansion is inward.
How can you claim that when the space between any two points is increasing?

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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 76 of 305 (700000)
05-29-2013 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Peter Lamont
05-15-2013 6:46 PM


Let's see how this evidence holds up . . .
There are two kinds of expansion, the first kind (1) Accelerates and then slows down, and the second kind (2) which starts slowly and then accelerates.
The first kind (1) is Outward - an explosion, Big Bang?, popping seed-case, Solar Wind etc. An explosion begins with acceleration.
The second kind (2) is Inward. Air nearing the nozzle of a Central-Vac will start slowly and then accelerate, losing pressure (expanding) as it enters the nozzle.
None of those apply to the type of expansion we are talking about. The expansion of our universe is the expansion of the space itself. In your examples, we have the movement of matter within space. Those are two very different things.
A snowball that the kids just managed to push over the edge of the snowy bank accelerates as it expands on its way to Earth's Center of Mass.
That has nothing to do with the expansion of our universe.
Each time a bird flaps its wing, it makes a (free) vortex. The outside of any such vortex turns only slowly but air caught up in this vortex will then accelerate, losing pressure and expanding on its way to the center.
The expansion of our universe is not driven by areas of different pressure within a planetary atmosphere. This has nothing to do with the expansion of our universe.
The Expansion 'et al' is being pulled (hence the acceleration) by an ongoing (and seemingly increasing) attractive force, emminating from an 'All Relative' Central Point.
Then we would expect to see a blueshift. We don't. We see the exact opposite which is a redshift. Also, we see time dilation in heavily redshifted type Ia supernovae, exactly what we would expect to see if they were moving away from us at high speed. We also see that redshift is consistent no matter where we look which is not what we would expect if we were in a vortex.

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 Message 5 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-15-2013 6:46 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-29-2013 5:26 PM Taq has replied
 Message 104 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-30-2013 5:49 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 101 of 305 (700148)
05-30-2013 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Peter Lamont
05-29-2013 5:26 PM


First off - Taq you have to understand the Universe isn't expanding.
All of the evidence indicates that the universe is expanding. That is what you need to understand.
Anybody who claims he can see the Universe is just pretending.
What we can see is distant stars, and what we see with distant stars is a redshift. We also see time dilation in heavily redshifted type Ia supernovae which can only be explained by a difference in velocity between us and the type Ia supernovae caused by expansion.
Everything is moving away from us. The universe is expanding.
As for the Central-Vac and the snowball, I'm just trying to show that any 'Accelerating Expansion' is inward.
That is nonsense. Expansion is outward, by definition. When you expand a balloon do you let air out of it so that it shrinks? If you say that your waist line is expanding are you saying that your waist size is getting smaller?
I think matter is moving away from other matter, tho' you may disagree.
That is exactly what is happening which is what we would expect to see in an expanding universe.
Blue shifting does not apply. Air moving towards a Central Vac (CV) will lose pressure (I'm sure you can see that) and that's expansion (Red shift).
Red shift is not caused by a loss of pressure. Red shift is due to a difference in velocity.
A central vac is not analogous to our universe.
I hope that answers your doubts.
It doesn't answer them at all. You have yet to explain the most basic observations:
1. Why are galaxies redshifted, and does the redshift increase with distance?
2. What produced the CMB?
3. Why are distant type Ia supernovae going through time dilation?
Your vacuum analogy doesn't answer any of this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-29-2013 5:26 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 102 of 305 (700149)
05-30-2013 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Peter Lamont
05-29-2013 6:44 PM


Re: Context
I repeat, there was no Big Bang. Such a thing is unthinkable.
It would appear that thousands of astrophysicists do think about it, and think about it quite well. You claims are nothing more than denial at this point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-29-2013 6:44 PM Peter Lamont has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 103 of 305 (700153)
05-30-2013 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Peter Lamont
05-29-2013 4:48 PM


Our Universe is a vortex, like the Milky Way - but if it passes thru' a particularly dense part of space, it could grow. That's why I don't like to say it's contracting.
If that were so then we would not see a consistent increase in redshift with distance. The galaxies on the same side of the vortex as us and the same distance from the center of rotation would be moving the same speed and would not be redshifted. Galaxies on the same side as us but behind us in the rotation would be catching up to us and blueshifted. We would see a whole array of redshifted and blueshifted galaxies with really no relation to distance. That is not what we see.
Instead, we see a dead on correlation between redshift and distance, exactly what we should see in a galaxy without a vortex and even expansion everywhere. The evidence supports and expanding universe, and falsifies your vortex ideas.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Peter Lamont, posted 05-29-2013 4:48 PM Peter Lamont has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 105 of 305 (700164)
05-30-2013 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Peter Lamont
05-30-2013 5:49 PM


Taq, falling into a black hole is a lot like going into a vacuum cleaner,
If we were falling into a black hole then the stars opposite of the black hole would be blue shifted. They aren't. Galaxies are moving away from us, not towards us or a towards a central portion of the universe.
The evidence contradicts your claims.
As for the vortex, in any vortex you would accelerate, and that would cause you to lose pressure and expand.
Our universe is not expanding due to a loss in air pressure. That is the most ludicrous thing I have ever read.
Let me know if you have any trouble with this. I know, with everything converging on the nozzle, you would expect a high pressure, but this is not what happens - instead you have a vacuum at the nozzle.
If galaxies are converging on the nozzle then they would be blue shifted. They aren't. They are the exact opposite. They are red shifted.

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