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Author Topic:   Does Christianity allow for free will?
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Message 4 of 45 (70798)
12-03-2003 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by physicspete
11-22-2003 1:00 PM


physicspete writes:
It is also the opinion of many that as God is good, the root of evil lies in the free will of humans.
IMHO, this proposition carries greater implications that many realize. From this we must conclude that there exists no free will in heaven if free will is what causes evil and heaven is supposed to be "evil-free." Additionally, if we were to presume that free will can exist in heaven, then we can conclude that God is capable of creating an environment in which free will can exist without evil. If he is so capable yet an environment exists in which free will exists with evil, then we must conclude that God wanted evil there and in fact put it there, and the claim that free will is the cause of evil is thus negated.

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Message 13 of 45 (76647)
01-05-2004 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-05-2004 1:46 PM


Re: Good, better, best. ...
Stephen ben Yeshua writes:
Then, evil is the fault of those who chose to have that power, and was birthed out of their God-given free will with His permission. He, of course, knew what might happen when He gave such power, hoped (we suppose) that it wouldn't, but the choice to have or use such power does reveal a lot about what is in someone's heart, and so was consistent with His good will.
There's a problem here. In the typical Christian conceptualization of God, His foreknowledge is exhaustive and infallible. If that is the case, then your statement "He ... knew what might happen" is actually false. With infallible foreknowledge, He must've known what would necessarily follow his decision to create humans. In fact, its meaningless to speak of free will at all if God's knowledge is thus. All events are necessarily consistent with God's foreknowledge at the instant of creation and God is therefore culpable for all outcomes.
EDIT: Given this statement from you in your response to Martin:
Free will, to my understanding, has to mean that, while God knows all possible outcomes of some choices He gives me, He doesn't know what I will choose and so does not know which of the possible variants of the future my choices determine will in fact occur.
...it seems your God-concept is more consistent with the existence of free will than the god-concept against which I am arguing. It is only infallible and exhaustive foreknowledge of all single outcomes that negates free will. The probablistic scenario you've described is something different since God within it (as I understand it) God can be partially wrong.
[This message has been edited by ::, 01-05-2004]

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Message 24 of 45 (78662)
01-15-2004 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by JustinC
01-14-2004 2:51 AM


Re: Good, better, best. ...
Hi, Justin. Asgara already supplied a sufficient response to your post, but I thought I'd phrase one for you in my own words in order to give you a few perspectives...
JustinCy writes:
How does foreknowledge contradict free will? In other words, how does someone knowing what I am going to do negate the fact that I had free will to do otherwise?
The important qualification that is often overlooked is the supposed infallibility of God's foreknowledge. Since it is supposed to be impossible in principle for God to have erroneous knowledge, all of the future events which he knows thus must be precisely determined in order to be known. It is a contradiction to say that God infallibly knows the exact future state of any propogating system, and that future state is still undetermined. In other words, if the state were truly undetermined, then God could not know infallibly and precisely what it is. Knowing that future state precisely and infallibly requires determining exactly what it is to be known.
I know exactly what I am going to do in the relative future of the event I am watching, but does that mean that I didn't have free will to do otherwise?
Well, strictly speaking, the uncertainty principle prohibits this from being true because it is impossible in principle to know completely and precisely any single state of the universe. You may be able to predict the future state of your body with a high degree of accuracy, but you cannot predict it with infallible accuracy.
Is there a logical contradiction between foreknowledge and free will?
Yes. That is, between infallible foreknowledge and free will.
1.) I have free will with respect to action A at time T if and only if there exist possible worlds A1, A2, A3, ... An in the future (at time (T + 1)) of action A.
2.) Divine (infallible) foreknowledge requires that all worlds contrary to that which is divinely known are impossible (because those worlds represent the possibility for God to be wrong, which, according to the definition of infallibility, is impossible, hence those worlds do not exist).
3.) Suppose that at time (T - 1), God infallibly knows that world AG exists at (T + 1).
4.) According to (2), all other worlds besides AG are impossible, and therefore do not exist.
5.) Therefore I do not have free will with respect to action A.
Out of curiousity, have you read any interesting pieces on this subject?
Lots of odds and ends that I've found on the net. Nothing comes to mind that's worth singling out.
I do agree, though, that the free will defense as a solution to the problem of evil has contradictory (or atleast unconventional) implications about the Nature of Heaven.
I agree. If evil necessarily follows from free will, then free will can't exist in Heaven where there is supposed to be no evil.
...but that's a different thread altogether...

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