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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Absolutely. Remember I said religion is a map, not the territory. There can be may maps of the very same territory and each will be slightly different. Each will be more accurate than the others in some details, less accurate in others.
The map I have chosen in Christianity. Had I been brought up differently I would likely be a Jew, a Hindu, an Animist, Moslem, Atheist, Agnostic, Taoist ... But I'm not, I'm a Christian. Also, learn to distinguish between "Believe" and "Know". I may believe very strongly that there really was a Jesus, but I cannot know there was a Jesus. But whether or not there was a Jesus, whether or not there will be an afterlife and judgement is really irrelevant. Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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I'm the only Bible believer on this thread and a YEC. Yeah, you worship the Book more than you worship God and you follow the Book more than you follow Christ. You really should call yourself a Biblian instead of a Christian.
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scienceishonesty Member (Idle past 3727 days) Posts: 80 Joined: |
Hey thanks for trying to help me familiarize myself again. I'm pretty sure I remember you from a while back.
Let's not forget that belief in any religion comes from a desire for it to be true. I wanted it to be the truth and therefore it was. My main justification for believing in YEC was that I felt that I could show it to be equally viable to evolution although I would never suggest that it could be proven as being "superior" to evolution. Would you say that you hold a similar position currently? I look forward to perhaps going over some of the "formidable" creationist arguments and showing you that it is in fact inferior to evolution. One invokes something that cannot ever be falsified and the other shows a very, very plausible explanation coupled by supporting evidence. Obviously evolution cannot be "proven" in a test lab, but neither can archeology and yet you probably have no problem with accepting certain archeological finds and squeezing them into your paradigm to fit the biblical narrative whenever it doesn't conflict with the Biblical record. I've chosen to not spend my life believing as fact, something that is likely not true. It would be an affront to honesty and it would be a waste of my time, until I have some evidence to suggest otherwise. I've already wasted enough time in the past. I'd love to discuss irreducible complexity and micro vs macroevolution some time. Also, speciation and "kinds".
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Just want to be clear: The religion that has no wiggle room when it comes to evolution is Biblical Christianity, which is what SIH must have in mind. Most other religions (I don't know of an exception) can be adjusted to accommodate evolution, even "Christianity" that feels free to discount the Bible wherever "science" seems to contradict it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'd like to know who you are but I have a feeling you aren't going to say.
No, I don't really want to get into the old arguments at EvC any more. Sorry.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Just want to be clear: The religion that has no wiggle room when it comes to evolution is Biblical Christianity, which is what SIH must have in mind. Most other religions (I don't know of an exception) can be adjusted to accommodate evolution, even "Christianity" that feels free to discount the Bible wherever "science" seems to contradict it. Yeah, that's because the other religions are honest. If you have absolutely no wiggle room then you are just lying to yourself.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Let's not forget that belief in any religion comes from a desire for it to be true. Oh, absolutely not. I know of people who came to recognize the truth of the Bible and put up a fight before giving in to it. I'm one of them.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Catholic Scientist writes:
And arrogant.
If you have absolutely no wiggle room then you are just lying to yourself.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Let's not forget that belief in any religion comes from a desire for it to be true. I don't think so. Why couldn't you reluctantly accept the tenets of a religion if you were convinced that they were true? You seem to be as dogmatically against religion now as you used to be for it. Maybe you should just drop the dogmatism altogether
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scienceishonesty Member (Idle past 3727 days) Posts: 80 Joined: |
quote: I'm actually not entirely sure, but even if I knew I would probably not wish to disclose it. Isn't exactly relevant anyway.
quote: How important and real does that make your religion when on the quest for truth then?
quote: Those are just semantics to make the catholic faith seem like it is reasonable and on par with rational thought. They will always seek to accommodate science as compatible as long as it does not directly conflict with the core teachings that the catholic church holds. I mean, come on, they still have a Pope figure for crying out loud and they can't even admit that they did wrong as a Church by murdering hundreds of thousands of "heretic" christians during the middle ages. It is always blamed on "people within the church".
quote: It is all about degrees of compromise. Typical protestant creationists also believe in evolution as well. Well, that "things change" but they don't accept that there is a common ancestor for all life.
quote: It may seem nauseating to you because you've heard it a lot, and yet it's so profoundly obvious to the person that actually thinks about it without their "I want" lenses. It's simple, irrefutable logic so it has to be belittled with derision.
quote: So you really don't know that God and Christ exist?
quote: Ah okay. Now here's a position I can identify with. I held this one for a while. I mean, after all, what is there to lose right? ...maybe only a tiny bit of honesty and integrity but not much else.
quote: Religion can't encourage real questioning unless its of the specious veneer variety. That's what science is for. Religion asserts, it isn't about learning the truth no matter what that truth might be.
quote: Yeah yeah. I tried that too.
quote: Actually I got to the point where I wanted to believe that I just "lean" towards Christianity, believing that the evidence for ID is probably "just as good" as anything else and therefore justified it in that way. Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
Then I would argue that you are probably not a devout Christian. Sure, he is. However, he is not a YEC.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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scienceishonesty Member (Idle past 3727 days) Posts: 80 Joined: |
Give me one explanation why I should be more persuaded to reluctantly believe in your catholic variety of Christianity over Zeus and the Olympian pantheon or Hinduism or Islam?
Do you feel that the evidence is greater? If we're speaking in terms of the Bible, archeology has already shown that the Israelites grew out of the collapse of the Canaanite society itself and that they didn't come from Egypt in any mass Exodus like the Bible claims. Israelites were displaced poor people in Canaan who came together to forward egalitarian thought and eventually just formed their own small kingdom, at which time they decided to start having kings. During the time of David and Solomon the Israelites were polytheists just like the Canaanites. it wasn't until after they were conquered by the Babylonians that scribes writing the early books of the Bible blamed polytheism as the reason for God forsaking them. "Yaweh" along with his wife "Asherah" were worshipped for years and years (there is even archeological evidence showing the words "Yaweh and his wife Asherah" inscribed on tablets found in Israel during that time). Yaweh actually came from the Canaanite chief god "El" (Ever heard of Elohim? Elijah etc etc). And of course, guess who became what we know as Satan today? Ba'al! It's all recycled mythology. You seem like you are fond of speaking in rational terms, so help me by understanding why it might be a sensible choice for me to start believing in what you do? Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given. Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given. Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given. Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given. Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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Welcome again.
I'm repeating myself. However, people seem to be giving you a hard time in your welcome topic, so it is worth repeating. As you can see, we are an argumentative bunch. I'm glad to have you on board, to add to our diversity.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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scienceishonesty Member (Idle past 3727 days) Posts: 80 Joined: |
Haha yes. I noticed. it's kind of fun. I don't even know why I came back here. Maybe to just get some closure I guess. I don't expect to really convince anyone.
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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scienceishonesty writes: Hi everyone! Hi scienceishonesty!
I just wanted to introduce myself and also mention that I used to debate here years ago under a different alias and had quite a bit of fun "disproving" people. If you'd like, the admins have the ability to merge your current account with this new one. All old posts would change to this new name, and if you hover over your new name it will list both names. But maybe you'd like to keep them separate... sort of a visual indication of the paradigm shift. (I'm not sure how administration feels about that... but I'm sure they'll contact you if there's any issue to worry about).
HONESTY, admitting that I wasn't truly certain apart from wants or desires that the God I had in my mind existed for sure. It's always a weight off the shoulders to simply be honest and deal with reality. It just wipes away the needless complications and gets down to the simple root issues.
I used to believe that the reason people were evolutionists was because they didn't want to "admit" that there's a God so that they don't have to be "accountable". You may mean "atheists" here instead of "evolutionists." And no, atheists aren't trying to not-be-accountable. They are accountable to the people they deal with. And the people they deal with are much more difficult to please or even just appease than a God who only whispers in your mind.
The evidence for evolution may be imperfect but it's there and it's powerful and it is consistent with the evidence. That's the power of science.If it's ever not-consistent with the evidence... another scientist will point it out and update the theory so that it actually is consistent. And they are rewarded for doing this sort of thing (respect from their peers... grant money... nobel prizes). Will it ever "get the final answer?" -Who knows? Maybe. Maybe not.Will it always improve? -Absolutely. Religion asserts certain ideas as true and those beliefs outrank anything else in life, including any inconvenient scientific discoveries. This is a very good example of being honest with yourself and your ideas.The next step is to also allow other people to be honest with their ideas. This statement may certainly be valid for the way you understand religion.But other people can quite easily understand religion in a different way... Unless you can make a case (with evidence) showing how religion can/should only be understood the way you understand it?
Accepting the truth is not fun. I would like nothing more than to know for sure that there is some wonderful paradise waiting for me after I die. For me, I found solace in moving my faith from "God"... an entity that represented ideals like love and hope and honesty... to putting my faith in those actual ideals... love and hope and honesty. We know love and hope and honesty exist, "God" was just an anthropomorphized being that embodied those ideals.Therefore, it's just as powerful to believe/trust in the ideals themselves. Sometimes it can even be stronger... more direct. This sort of thing, though, is very personal and different for everyone.Which gets us right back to what you mentioned in the beginning... being honest with yourself. Just be honest and follow the path that makes the most sense with your experiences. No one can blame anyone for doing that. I thought I'd reveal my story because it's one of awakening. It's hard admitting this, it really is, but I really needed to admit all of this for myself. Thanks for sharing. I find it interesting to go over other people's stories and contrast them to my own. If nothing else, abuse this forum for your own path of self-discovery to see what works for you. That's what I do. This is a great place to test ideas and learn mistakes and figure out what really does work for you. Have fun
I'll be posting an essay here on religion and honesty and god soon. "Essay" sounds long and boring... but the content seems interesting to me. It is strange to want to read it and yet get that feeling of "awwww... stupid essay.." back from my schooling years.
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