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Author | Topic: Is Christianity Evil? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Tangle writes: Where the Christian message - and most other religious messages - go wrong is claiming to be the one true religion and the only way to various afterlife existences. Some of them believe this to be so true that they go about killing people for it. I don't agree that is entirely true about Christianity. Yes the Christian message is that God will ultimately bring about the recreation of this world in and through what He has done in Jesus Christ. He does also say that those that follow Jesus Christ, which is not just about believing in Him but actually following Him, even imperfectly will be part of and in some way play a role in this new creation. Following Him means that one finds joy in acts of sacrificial service to others and for that matter to all of His creation. As to what happens those of other beliefs is best put by CS Lewis, (I know I've quoted this numerous times previously), when he says: quote: In other words there will always be in the end those that miss out as they will not give up the world view that it is all about looking after number one. I'd suggest that there will be many, from atheist to Muslim, who find themselves existing in this new creation that will be very surprised that they are there because of how God acted through Jesus Christ. Here is another CS Lewis quote from his book "The Last Battle". It is a spoken by a soldier of the evil character Tash.
quote: He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
I'm both cheering your post for its eloquent good intentions...
GDR writes: I'd suggest that there will be many, from atheist to Muslim, who find themselves existing in this new creation that will be very surprised that they are there because of how God acted through Jesus Christ. ...and objecting to it because this notion:
quote: ...is a pernicious doctrine in the hands of zealots, who use it to justify a God who practices eternal torment as well as accusing non-believers of turning their backs on a divine call they never received. AbE: Plus, I despise false dilemmas. Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.-Terence
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: don't agree that is entirely true about Christianity. So you have a different opinion. Just like Lewis had a different opinion. The problem with both your views are that they're just opinion. Neither you nor Lewis has any more knowledge of God's intentions than I or anyone else has. 1.2 billion Catholics also have a different opinion. And of course Faith and her ilk. And also 1.6 billion Muslims. And 1bn atheists/deists/secularists etc etc. Tricky to simply assume that you're right just because it suits the way you - and Lewis - prefer it to be. The trouble with your beliefs is that they can be anything you want them to be and you can find a suitably errudite writer to elucidate them for you - these people exist in every belief system. It's nice to know that in the West at least, Christianity is being tamed and civilised but it's not universal and Christianity is not the only religion and it's not all terribly nice.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Omnivorous writes: ...is a pernicious doctrine in the hands of zealots, who use it to justify a God who practices eternal torment as well as accusing non-believers of turning their backs on a divine call they never received. I think that is the whole point though. It isn't a case of being a non-believer. It is a case of those who turn their back on an existence in which the fundamental underpinnings of that is existence is based on unselfish love. There will always be those who are unable to turn away from selfish love. Everyone one of us is able to hear that still small voice that calls us to respond to the call that is Micah 6:8 which is my signature. If you read Matthew 25 and the sheep and the goats it isn't those that got their theology right that are right with God, but those who without thought of reward in this life or the next, visited those in prison, fed the hungry etc. As far as hell being a place of eternal torment I think that by serving oneself, without thought to the well being of others, one creates their own hell. If hell is a place that is characterized with that as a fundamental then I can see it being a place of eternal torment, but if that is what one chooses then they should be free to make that choice. I recommend Lewis' "The Great Divorce" so that you can understand that quote in the context of the entire book. In the end, it isn't about our theology, it is about our hearts, and frankly in spite of what Christian fundamentalists will tell you, that position is Biblical.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3991 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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I understand your position, GDR, and that's why you got a cheer.
"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.-Terence
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
In the end, it isn't about our theology, it is about our hearts, and frankly in spite of what Christian fundamentalists will tell you, that position is Biblical. Not according to Jeremiah, who said "the heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it?" The love we are to have does not come from our own deceitful hearts, it comes from the Holy Spirit and that takes a lot of growing into for some of us.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: So you have a different opinion. Just like Lewis had a different opinion. The problem with both your views are that they're just opinion. Neither you nor Lewis has any more knowledge of God's intentions than I or anyone else has. 1.2 billion Catholics also have a different opinion. And of course Faith and her ilk. And also 1.6 billion Muslims. And 1bn atheists/deists/secularists etc etc. Tricky to simply assume that you're right just because it suits the way you - and Lewis - prefer it to be. The trouble with your beliefs is that they can be anything you want them to be and you can find a suitably errudite writer to elucidate them for you - these people exist in every belief system. Fine, but what I had responded to in your previous post was this:
Tangle writes: Where the Christian message - and most other religious messages - go wrong is claiming to be the one true religion and the only way to various afterlife existences. You made a claim that characterized the Christian message in a way that I as a Christian believe is false. My post was a response to your representation of Christianity which is presumably your opinion as to what the Christian message is.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: The love we are to have does not come from our own deceitful hearts, it comes from the Holy Spirit and that takes a lot of growing into for some of us. Sure, and the Holy Spirit is that still small voice of God reaching out to all of us, regardless of our personal theology, so that hearts can be changed.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: My post was a response to your representation of Christianity which is presumably your opinion as to what the Christian message is. I don't have an opinion of what the Christian message is, I'm just reporting what most of them say it is. You have an opinion, they have different ones. As do all the others. There's no way of knowing whether any of them are correct - people just seem to either accept the one they're born into, or, if they're lucky enough to live in a liberal democracy, pick the one that suits their personality best.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: I don't have an opinion of what the Christian message is, I'm just reporting what most of them say it is. You have an opinion, they have different ones. As do all the others. There's no way of knowing whether any of them are correct - people just seem to either accept the one they're born into, or, if they're lucky enough to live in a liberal democracy, pick the one that suits their personality best. To a large extent I agree. In the end our religious beliefs are a faith. They are what we believe about the nature of God and how that is to impact our lives. I have no doubt that I can find a point of disagreement with virtually any other Christian. That however is the point. If we had certainty then we lose our objectivity and to a large extent our free will. Again, it is about the heart and it cannot be about choosing good over evil with the idea that I well be rewarded in the end one way or another. We are called to choose the good thing simply because it is the right thing and that is where our heart is.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: We are called to choose the good thing simply because it is the right thing and that is where our heart is. And that is true for all people whether believers or not. The only people who do not have that instinct are those that are mentally ill. Religious belief is therefore redundant - an unnecessary and often dangerous addition to something that is normal human behaviour.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And that is true for all people whether believers or not. Truth is reality, whether one believes in it or not. IF God exists, God exists whether or not anyone believed it to be so.
Religious belief is therefore redundant - an unnecessary and often dangerous addition to something that is normal human behaviour. Religious belief can be dangerous...I will agree. It can also be helpful. There is only one God. No redundancy...unless you insist on elevating yourself up to such a humanistic standard. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
IF God exists, God exists whether or not anyone believed it to be so.Phat writes:
Why would there be only one?
There is only one God.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: There is only one God. No there isn't. (Do you see the problem with bald assertions?)
No redundancy...unless you insist on elevating yourself up to such a humanistic standard. GDR said that anyone who leads a good life would get to heaven (i paraphrase). Therefore a belief in God is redundant.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Tangle writes: And that is true for all people whether believers or not. The only people who do not have that instinct are those that are mentally ill. Religious belief is therefore redundant - an unnecessary and often dangerous addition to something that is normal human behaviour. I don't think I'd call it an instinct. We have an instinct for survival but I don't agree that we have an instinct for unselfish love. I think that humans are basically more drawn to look after one's own interest even if it is at the expense of another. However, as I said, we do all have a sense that when we have personal gain at the expense of others we have crossed the line between what would have been the right thing to do and what we actually did. However, that isn't really the point. I'm a Christian. My Christian faith is based on the Gospel writers contention that God resurrected (not resuscitated) Jesus. If I didn't believe that I then I would agree with your position. The entire New Testament really evolves around the first Christians working out what this meant to them, and to the world, and we are still called to do that today. The basic message that they gleaned is that Jesus came to establish a kingdom of followers who are called to bring His truth, justice, love and peace to the world. However, people are still people with their desire for personal power and as a result there have been terrible things done in the name of Christianity. People are still people. I'm in a relatively small Anglican church. There is nobody there for reasons of personal gain. The amount of work that gets done by people in that church to serve the local community is amazing. On top of that 3 African missions are being supported and there are numerous other needs being met as well. That has been my experience of church life when I lived in Montreal, Toronto and now here. We are now organizing again to do what we have done before in sponsoring refugees into Canada. There are those that want to make Christianity all about being looked after in the next life. That entirely misses the point. If you want to talk about being saved then OK, but the point is to be saved for a purpose and that purpose is to infect the world with the love of God as embodied by Jesus Christ. The other thing that we get from Christianity is the belief that the good we do in this life has ultimate meaning. We all know that our world as we know it is finite but Christianity teaches that all this will be renewed as Jesus was renewed. If we believe that there is nothing but oblivion at the end of time, as opposed to the idea that we are building for something new and something better, then that can hardly help but have an impact own our world view.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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