Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,909 Year: 4,166/9,624 Month: 1,037/974 Week: 364/286 Day: 7/13 Hour: 2/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Are religions manmade and natural or supernaturally based?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 346 of 511 (772629)
11-17-2015 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Greatest I am
11-13-2015 9:34 AM


Hi DL,
DL writes:
Yet God decided to kill them the first time they used their free will and not God's will and chose knowledge over staying stupid and blind.
Where does the Bible say they were stupid?
The man named all the animals in Genesis 2:19-20. There was a lady in Africa that spent 40 years trying to name all the animals in Africa.
Where does the Bible say they were blind?
The man's job was to keep and dress the Garden. Genesis 2:15 He could see the animals as he named them. He was also able to see the woman when God brought her to him. Genesis 2:23
DL writes:
Do you have a free will if you have to follow commands on pain of death?
Nobody nor God makes you believe what you believe. Yet if you continue on the path you have chosen you will spend eternity in a lake of fire with that serpent you like to refer too in the garden.
The man was given a direct command, that command was never given to the woman, although the man did relay it to her.
quote:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Now this man was allowed to eat the fruit of every tree except one. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The man knew good because he walked and talked with God in the garden. Genesis 2:16, 17, 22
The man did not know evil until he willfully took the fruit his wife offered him and did eat. Their eyes were not opened to see evil until the man had eaten the fruit. They were not opened when the woman ate the fruit.
DL writes:
Do commands and their accompanying punishments not negate a free will?
Yes they do.
Your conclusion is false.
The man had free will to eat the fruit or to not eat the fruit. If he had not had the choice he would not have eaten the fruit. He and his beautiful wife would still be in the garden enjoying all of the gardens pleasures as everything in the garden was perfect until the man chose to eat the fruit which was disobedience to God's command and that disobedience polluted the entire universe with the penalty of sin which is death.
Mankind must die, a physical death. Those who are not born again will die a spiritual death separated from God for eternity.
The universe and earth must die as they have to be purified by fire.
Then God will resume creating by creating a new universe and earth.
DL writes:
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
You or I have never had the choice the man that was formed from the dust of the ground had. The choice he made brought the penalty of death to everything.
The only choice you or I have is to accept the offer of a free full pardon that God has offer to all mankind that will accept it.
DL writes:
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.
The man formed from the dust of the ground was sinless and disobeyed God which was sin. Eating the fruit was not the sin. Choosing to disobey God was the sin. Because of that sin all are under the penalty of sin.
quote:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He that believeth on him is not condemned.
He that believeth not is condemned already. Don't have to do anything to become condemned.
Then John gives the reason mankind is condemned.
Because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
So a person who does not believe in God is condemned already. Because if you don't believe in Him you will never trust Him to save you.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Greatest I am, posted 11-13-2015 9:34 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 8:20 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 347 of 511 (772630)
11-17-2015 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Greatest I am
11-13-2015 9:39 AM


Hi DL,
DL writes:
If God is controlling all energy and mass, and that would include us, then how is it you also say we have a free will. We cannot if we are controlled. Right?
Not in the way you think.
He is the energy that holds the atoms together that compose your body.
I think that energy is what a lot of folks call dark energy and dark matter.
As well as the everything in the universe.
quote:
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
DL writes:
You also said that God no longer creates when I showed him creating abominations. That also shows you contradicting yourself.
The definition of the Hebrew word וישׁבת that is translated rested is: to cease
So God ceased all his work and creating on the seventh day. He has not started creating since that day began. He will in the future create a new heaven and earth after this one melts with fervent heat. 2 Peter 3:12, Revelation 21:1.
All you showed me was what some evolutionist claim is a mutation gone wrong.
God created none of the things you presented. Mutations do happen.
I hope that cleared it up for you.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Greatest I am, posted 11-13-2015 9:39 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 8:24 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 355 by NoNukes, posted 11-17-2015 1:11 PM ICANT has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 348 of 511 (772637)
11-17-2015 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 346 by ICANT
11-17-2015 1:26 AM


ICANT
How dishonestly selective reading.
Typical Christian.
"Where does the Bible say they were stupid?"
If the bible has to tell you every detail then you are not thinking of what you are reading.
The tree of knowledge of good and evil is basically the tree of all knowledge because all knowledge is subject to good and evil.
How could A & E not have been stupid and innocent without any knowledge?
Prove this for yourself. Find anything that is not subject to good and evil.
-------
"Nobody nor God makes you believe what you believe. Yet if you continue on the path you have chosen you will spend eternity in a lake of fire with that serpent you like to refer too in the garden."
Thanks for the childish threat. Was that lie used on you to make you believe that serpents can talk human? Are you that delusional?
Here child. Some information for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc
------------
"that disobedience polluted the entire universe with the penalty of sin which is death."
Wow. Aren't we special and ever so powerful. --- in your delusion.
---------------
"The only choice you or I have is to accept the offer of a free full pardon that God has offer to all mankind that will accept it."
Free?
You give no value to a human life?
It is not free when you have to sell your soul to Satan.
Human sacrifice is evil and your God demanding one and accepting one is evil.
You trying to profit from that evil is evil. Do just a bit of thinking and you will agree.
Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong — say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.
Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?
In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.
Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong — you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?
For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant — of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
Do you agree?
If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2015 1:26 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Bliyaal, posted 11-17-2015 8:58 AM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 357 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2015 3:23 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 349 of 511 (772638)
11-17-2015 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 347 by ICANT
11-17-2015 2:30 AM


ICANT
So now man is a creator just like God was.
In fact, we are more powerful as creators than God since we can reproduce and he cannot.
So much for omnipotence. That is just one of the many lies your delusion helps you believe.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2015 2:30 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2015 3:32 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13044
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 350 of 511 (772640)
11-17-2015 8:50 AM


Moderator Warning
Usually there is no one person to blame when a thread spirals out of control. One moderator responsibility is to nip such spiraling in the bud. I'll just cite a couple anonymous quotes and ask that it stop:
It looks as if you've stopped pretending to be polite.
You ignore the consequence question showing how dishonest a poster you are.
I'll issue short suspensions if this isn't cleaned up in future posts.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2398 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 351 of 511 (772641)
11-17-2015 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by Greatest I am
11-17-2015 8:20 AM


Find anything that is not subject to good and evil.
A table is pretty neutral to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 8:20 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 9:41 AM Bliyaal has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 352 of 511 (772642)
11-17-2015 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Bliyaal
11-17-2015 8:58 AM


Bliyaal
Not if it only has 3 legs. Then it is evil.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Bliyaal, posted 11-17-2015 8:58 AM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Bliyaal, posted 11-17-2015 12:51 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 2398 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


Message 353 of 511 (772655)
11-17-2015 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Greatest I am
11-17-2015 9:41 AM


No, it's a broken table, not an evil table.
I hope you are joking but I'm not. You asked for an exemple of anything that is not subject to good and evil and I gave you one. Now what you have to do is to explain how a table could be good or evil.
Should be interesting...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 9:41 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 3:39 PM Bliyaal has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13044
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 354 of 511 (772657)
11-17-2015 1:10 PM


Moderator Request for Clarity
There's no problem with having some fun, but if there's a serious point about the nature of tables then it should be made clearly, or if it's an attempt at humor then that should be made clear.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 3:45 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 355 of 511 (772659)
11-17-2015 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by ICANT
11-17-2015 2:30 AM


He is the energy that holds the atoms together that compose your body.
I think that energy is what a lot of folks call dark energy and dark matter.
The energy that holds atoms together is neither dark energy nor dark matter. I don't think that matters for your argument.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2015 2:30 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2015 3:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 356 of 511 (772665)
11-17-2015 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by NoNukes
11-17-2015 1:11 PM


Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes:
The energy that holds atoms together is neither dark energy nor dark matter. I don't think that matters for your argument.
The dark energy and dark matter was in reference to what hold's the universe together as it is made up of atoms also.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by NoNukes, posted 11-17-2015 1:11 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by NoNukes, posted 11-17-2015 7:26 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 357 of 511 (772668)
11-17-2015 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Greatest I am
11-17-2015 8:20 AM


Hi DL,
DL writes:
The tree of knowledge of good and evil is basically the tree of all knowledge because all knowledge is subject to good and evil.
What says it is all knowledge?
The man had named all the animals, called the female, woman and had talks with God if only God speaking to him. He knew language and could speak. He was not stupid as you say.
DL writes:
Thanks for the childish threat. Was that lie used on you to make you believe that serpents can talk human? Are you that delusional?
No childish threat, just a promise from God.
DL writes:
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
God did not send someone else to die to restore the relationship with mankind. He came Himself.
quote:
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
It was prophesied the child would be God with us.
DL writes:
escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
So No God did not send some innocent human to be punished but came to buy mankind out of the bondage the man formed from the dust of the ground has sold mankind into. He came Himself to be the kinsman redeemer.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 8:20 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 3:56 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 358 of 511 (772669)
11-17-2015 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Greatest I am
11-17-2015 8:24 AM


Hi DL,
DL writes:
So now man is a creator just like God was.
Mankind in Genesis 1:27 was created in the image of God so why would he not be able to create?
When I look around at all the things mankind has made in the universe and on the earth I would say mankind is prolific in producing things.
DL writes:
In fact, we are more powerful as creators than God since we can reproduce and he cannot
Mankind can only reproduce because God made it possible for a male to have sperm and a female to have an egg that when combined would produce a human being. He also provided all the duct work that made it possible.
We can not create anything because to do so we would have to produce the energy and mass to create something out of. We can only take what exists and rearrange it into things.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Greatest I am, posted 11-17-2015 8:24 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 359 of 511 (772673)
11-17-2015 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Bliyaal
11-17-2015 12:51 PM


Bliyaal
Semantics.
On the scale of good and evil, there is no broken.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Bliyaal, posted 11-17-2015 12:51 PM Bliyaal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Bliyaal, posted 11-18-2015 7:34 AM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 367 by ringo, posted 11-18-2015 11:15 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 360 of 511 (772674)
11-17-2015 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Admin
11-17-2015 1:10 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Clarity
Admin
The theory that all is subject to good and evil and that the tree of knowledge represent the knowledge of everything is quite old.
I have yet to find anything to refute that idea.
Some leeway for language has to be given as I just showed our friend but the basic idea is quite sound and so far irrefutable.
Free Online Bible Classes | What is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Admin, posted 11-17-2015 1:10 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024