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Author | Topic: Decline And Fall Of The American Empire | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
I didn't say it requires your labour. I said it requires somebody's labour - to acquire the money that measures the value.
My point about natural resources is that there is a lot of value in having ownership of them that doesn't require any of your labor to acquire... New Cat's Eye writes:
Market fluctuations depend on how much of somebody's labour somebody is willing and able to spend on the resources.
On top of that, their value can increase in ways that don't originate in labor - like market fluctuations. New Cat's Eye writes:
That's exactly what arbitrary means. Society arbitrarily decides that you own the trees but not the minerals. Society arbitrarily decides that you can build a house on your land but not a chemical plant. Society arbitrarily decides that you can sell your land to country A but not to country B.
Society has determined that certain individuals own certain things, and that ownership is not arbitrary. New Cat's Eye writes:
Uh huh. That's what I've been saying, that the value comes from labour. If somebody "uses my labour" for their own benefit, the value is coming from labour even if the labourer doesn't receive the benefit.
If the only way you know how to create value is through labor, then people are going to use thier money to buy your labor to create value for themselves. New Cat's Eye writes:
I never said anything about "the Labour Class".
So anyways, going back further - you entered a discussion revolving around the Labor Class New Cat's Eye writes:
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. That's a different discussion. I said that labour and taking advantage of somebody else's labour both involve labour.
There's nothing wrong with profiting off of human labor when you're risking your money to end up creating more valuable things.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I didn't say it requires your labour. I didn't say you did, it's just a point. You aren't being very clear, and I'm saying stuff...
I said it requires somebody's labour - to acquire the money that measures the value. It doesn't take labor to acquire money. It takes work to generate money.
Market fluctuations depend on how much of somebody's labour somebody is willing and able to spend on the resources. Or their money in lieu of labor - through which they can acquire more money. But creating value in the form of money is going to take some work, or risk.
New Cat's Eye writes:
That's exactly what arbitrary means. Society has determined that certain individuals own certain things, and that ownership is not arbitrary. No, arbitrary means randomly selected. There's a process for determining ownership. And paperwork n'stuff. That's not arbitrary.
Society arbitrarily decides that you own the trees but not the minerals. Society arbitrarily decides that you can build a house on your land but not a chemical plant. Society arbitrarily decides that you can sell your land to country A but not to country B. That's not how the word arbitrary works.
New Cat's Eye writes:
Uh huh. That's what I've been saying, If the only way you know how to create value is through labor, then people are going to use thier money to buy your labor to create value for themselves. After I pried it out of you...
that the value comes from labour. I originally replied to you saying that value equals labor. I'm disagreeing by saying that value doesn't only come from labor. I offered the example of the value of natural resources. There's also the value of risking your money. Too, market fluctuations can increase value on their own.
If somebody "uses my labour" for their own benefit, the value is coming from labour even if the labourer doesn't receive the benefit. Not all value comes from labor.
New Cat's Eye writes:
I never said anything about "the Labour Class". So anyways, going back further - you entered a discussion revolving around the Labor Class That doesn't mean that you didn't enter a discussion on it. You do realize that the proliteriat is the Labor Class, right?
I said that labour and taking advantage of somebody else's labour both involve labour. Responding to someone talking about the proletariat with Value=Labor doesn't really look like saying that.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
On-and-on it goes.
My new car is from a South Korean Company with a car warranty of 7 years. Same luxury. Same comforts. At half the price of American, British, German, French, Italian or Japanese "reasonably" priced cars. Beat you Amcans or Brits or Germans or French or Italians or Japs. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
That's what I'm saying.
It takes work to generate money. New Cat's Eye writes:
There are no fixed standards for determining ownership. That's why we need courts to figure it out. I gave examples.
No, arbitrary means randomly selected. There's a process for determining ownership. And paperwork n'stuff. That's not arbitrary. New Cat's Eye writes:
I began discussing it around Message 40, long before your first post in the thread.
After I pried it out of you... New Cat's Eye writes:
And yet you agreed above that, "It takes work to generate money." Isn't that contradictory? Not all value comes from labor. Or is it based on your claim that work and labour are different? I have asked you a number of times to explain the difference.
New Cat's Eye writes:
Nothing I have said applies to one "class" or another. I don't believe in class distinctions at all. What we have in Canada - and probably the US too - is a spectrum, not a series of distinct groups.
You do realize that the proliteriat is the Labor Class, right?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
New Cat's Eye writes:
And yet you agreed above that, "It takes work to generate money." Isn't that contradictory? Not all value comes from labor. Not all value is money. Natural resources have value. Risk adds value.
Or is it based on your claim that work and labour are different? I have asked you a number of times to explain the difference. You're not answering my questions either. But not all work is labor. You can make a machine that does work - labor is done by a human.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
I don't think so. The value doesn't actually change until somebody agrees to pay you. You can take a risk on the lottery but that doesn't mean you're worth millions before you win.
Risk adds value. New Cat's Eye writes:
That's a plausible distinction - but how is it pertinent to this discussion?
You can make a machine that does work - labor is done by a human.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
qs=New Cat's Eye Risk adds value.
I don't think so. [/qs] I can live with that.
New Cat's Eye writes:
That's a plausible distinction - but how is it pertinent to this discussion? You can make a machine that does work - labor is done by a human. Not all value comes from labor.
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anglagard Member (Idle past 867 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
Pressie writes: or Japs. Please don't use a derogatory term for referring to the Japanese, WWII is over and it detracts from your point.Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
You keep saying that. But risk in itself doesn't produce value. There's no value added until somebody pays you for your risk - and he pays you with the fruits of his labour. As for the "work" done by machines, it's for the benefit of humans, isn't it? And humans pay for it with their "labour", don't they?
Not all value comes from labor.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I don't know what you're going on about and I've lost interest - it's like pulling teeth trying to get you to make some sense.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
What I've done is point out the flaws in your examples. I don't know what you're going on about and I've lost interest - it's like pulling teeth trying to get you to make some sense. Edited by ringo, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo,to New Cats Eye writes: Why not get back on topic and point out the flaws in the American Empire so that we can correct them before we implode and destroy my retirement! What I've done is point out the flaws in your examples.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
No empire lasts forever. I don't think the American Empire can be saved. On the bright side, it will probably last longer than you do. Why not get back on topic and point out the flaws in the American Empire so that we can correct them before we implode and destroy my retirement! I'm 65 and can't afford to retire, so I'm not too worried about your retirement.
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Phat Member Posts: 18351 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'm 65 and can't afford to retire, so I'm not too worried about your retirement. Well I'm 58, have Type II Diabetes and sleep apnea and am dependent on something external to help me. I would love to help you with your retirement if i had more energy and the means to do so. The American Empire may not last longer than I do. Perhaps I need to pray for the strength to tolerate being broke as you are, and the strength to work until I drop. There are some things that we cannot do for ourselves.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
The only advice I give young people is to enjoy life as they go along - don't wait for retirement. I've worked with too many people who spent their whole lives in jobs they hated, just trying to "get ahead". Perhaps I need to pray for the strength to tolerate being broke as you are, and the strength to work until I drop. My brother died at 56 with a "net worth" of about $700. I'd rather die with my boots on too.
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