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Author | Topic: Michael Servetus was burnt at the stake in Calvin's Geneva in 1553 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What seems really relevant is that the evidence shows that there has never been "The Christianity" where one interpretation of what Christianity means was universal. Any consistency in interpreting what Christianity is only came about based on politics of State Dictate and changed with each power struggle.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
In these discussions, I look at the bigger picture. For me, learning about other persons (or cultures) beliefs is secondary to learning about that person themselves. LNA has been at this forum for a couple of years now, and I only now am reading some of his posts. There does seem to be a common theme, but it is respectfully clarifying LNAs beliefs.
We can all ask questions all day about early beliefs vs latter beliefs, but to me, the age of a belief is irrelevant. What is relevant is finding common ground for a discussion regarding why one belief means more to an individual than another belief. LNA clearly is unimpressed with the western "Early Church Fathers" so I asked myself what it is that he is trying to teach us. So far it appears to be this:1) Respect the knowledge of other cultures. Don't assume that you or your culture or religion know it all or have the right truth. 2) Learning is a love. The excitement is in the hunt...the googling, the discovery of what historical people said about faith & belief...specifically Jesus, James the Just, and the early Jewish Christians. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Good point. LNA likely identifies more with the Mid East cultural interpretations of belief rather than the European model and certainly not the Biblical Christians of today. What seems really relevant is that the evidence shows that there has never been "The Christianity" where one interpretation of what Christianity means was universal. Any consistency in interpreting what Christianity is only came about based on politics of State Dictate and changed with each power struggle.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Respect the knowledge of other cultures. Don't assume that you or your culture or religion know it all or have the right truth. I don't see much respect, but your mileage may vary. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I was going to respond to several posters, but I don't think the computer will make it though. I'm amazed I logged in.
The issue of the views of the Jewish Christians came up, and how old they were. Here is the situation in the 70s (of the 4th century). Via Epiphanius
quote: It seems to fit in with the older evidence. The Gospel of the Hebrews (the one that seemed to be from Egypt, and was quoted by Clement of Alexandria AND IS NOT the same thing as the Gospel of the Ebionites and Gospel of the Nazarenes, though Jerome and Epiphanius called the latter "2" Gospels the Gospel or the Hebrews (single!) or the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, and Jerome & Epiphanius said the Nazarenes and Ebionites used the same single Hebrew Gospel) is dated to around 100-120 AD, and it seems to have the Holy Spirit coming into Jesus's body in a possession/ (not incarnational?) Adoptionist kind of way. The Kerygma Petri (or Kerygmata Petrou) had reincarnation/possession themes, and it is dated variously from 80-140 or 100-120. Clement of Alexandria quoted it much. I will find a source from a book I have in a while. Here is Wikipedia, showing everything we know about this Gospel of the Hebrews.
quote: Here is a reference to the Kerygma Petri or Proclamation of Peter.
quote: Graham Stanton (rip), mentioned the Kerygma Petri in his book, Jesus and Gospel, as a book that showed conscious awareness of the "Law of Christ" (nomos Christou) mentioned in in Galatians 6:3 (nomou Christou or "of the law of Christ" in the verse). He pointed out that 2nd century authors, like Clement of Alexandria used the term, and quoted works that used the term. He said the Kerygma Petri is to be dated from the first few decades of the 2nd century. The Elkesaites are dated either 100 AD (in the 3rd year of Trajan) or 116-117 (3rd year of campaigns in Persia), and they clearly have this Christology. (and the vegetarian views) The New Testament book of Hebrews was quoted by Clement of Rome (wrote in the 90s AD) and it seems to be responding to these themes. The Pastoral Letters, Acts of the Apostles, and Gospel of John seem to be responding to various views that Epiphanius (writing around 375) describes in his Panarion. All Jewish Christians seemed to have similar views. vegetarianism Christology that is an incarnational adoptionism. (and the ELKESAITES have vegetarian views described in 3 diverse sources. The long extant Panarion by Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis (Cyprus), then the Cologne Mani Codex essentially supports the vegetarianism(found in Egypt and it describes the vegetarian Mani rebelling against the Jewish Christian Elkesaite community he, a Persian, was born into) , and then a 10th century Arabic encyclopedia describes the Elkesaites as vegetarian. Many scholars try to say that early Ebionites, Nazarenes, and Elkesaites might not have been vegetarian but they have zero evidence for the assertion. Hegesippius and Clement of Alexandria were clearly vegetarians and they clearly described the Apostles as vegetarian. They were alive from the mid second century, and had better access to Jewish Christians AND ALL CHRISTIANS than modern scholars. All ancient sources agree that the diverse sects of Jewish Christians were ALL vegetarian! Any attempt to deny that the early 2nd century Jewish Christians were vegetarian has fallen completely apart. It is amazing how many diverse arguments I have seen, from historians, that attempt to discredit the sources. The doubting scholars say that Epiphanius was confusing the views of the Manicheans with the Elkesaites! The scholars admit that some of the 4th century Jewish Christians were vegetarian, but will say that not all would necessarily been, and then will say that "The 4th century vegetarian Ebionites of Epiphanius shouldn't be evidence that the 2nd century Ebionites of Irenaeus were so. They ignore the Elkesaite evidence plus Clement of Alexandria and Hegesippius. ) Hegesippius is as credible a source as there can possibly be. Listen to what Steve Mason said, in his Early Christian Reader.
quote: I often hear a lot of people talk about the Vatican supposedly hiding texts from people. I mention Hegesippus as the only REAL POSSIBILITY (fairly often when the issue of conspiracy comes up), but when people find out that my only concession is also hand-in-glove with the making of an argument that vegetarianism was a fundamental part of REAL CHRISTIANITY, the conspiracy theorists end up not liking Hegesippus and don't pursue the issue any further. People pursue what tickles their ears, not what is plausible.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I don't believe the reincarnation stuff. Looks as if many did, but I think that is distracting. Ultimately, my beliefs or your beliefs will be uniquely our own, not those of someone who lived 1800 years ago. I'm reading some of your cut n paste pasta, but it is still too overwhelming. Cant you just provide the links and skip the pasting? Makes for shorter tidier posts.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The whole life-after-death thing is a distraction. It's been around as long as there have been con-men. Distract the rubes from things that they could change by telling them to accept the bad things with serenity. It has as much to do with politics as anything else.
I don't believe the reincarnation stuff. Looks as if many did, but I think that is distracting.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Ringo writes: It has as much to do with politics as anything else. Most Christians are unaware of just how much of the basic dogma and even resources are definitely political in nature. The Book of Common Prayer was one recent (relatively recent) example that was created to control and mandate uniformity within the State Religion (Church of England) and replace the existing RCC Missal of the time and the Authorized (that often gets left out) King James Version of the Bible was yet a more recent example, a purely political document from James I & VI meant to provide support for the concept of Divine Right of Kings and to tone down the anti-Roman Catholic/anti-Papist rhetoric of the period and to heal the division between the COE and the Roman Catholic Church.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Which brings up the question that if the BCP was simply thrown together for a political purpose, how much value can it have? Most Christians are unaware of just how much of the basic dogma and even resources are definitely political in nature. The Book of Common Prayer was one recent (relatively recent) example that was created to control and mandate uniformity within the State Religion (Church of England) and replace the existing RCC Missal of the time Same with any Bible or religious philosophy. And this gets back to my argument regarding the motives of redactors, editors, and Canon committees.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
LNA writes: There is that word again. Ringo said it earlier in another topic:
People pursue what tickles their ears, not what is plausible.
ringo writes: I'm just saying there isn't enough evidence to make the case for God, etc. plausible. Bigfoot is more plausible than God but I don't believe he exists. Even leprechauns are more plausible than God. Websters writes: Definition of plausible 1 : superficially fair, reasonable, or valuable but often specious a plausible pretext2 : superficially pleasing or persuasive a swindler , then a quack, then a smooth, plausible gentleman R. W. Emerson 3 : appearing worthy of belief the argument was both powerful and plausible So lets go with #3. Why is reincarnation more plausible than resurrection? Is incarnation plausible?Are you aware of the differences between Eastern and Western belief systems? Is one group more plausible than the other? jar has a logical argument in that much of what shaped doctrine was political. You also have an argument that the dominant European culture called the shots on doctrine more than the minority cultures and their Christian (or Jewish Christian) communities. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: Which brings up the question that if the BCP was simply thrown together for a political purpose, how much value can it have? It has whatever value humans give it. Do the Gettysburg Address or US Constitution or Magna Carta or Authorized King James Version of the Bible have any value?
Phat writes: And this gets back to my argument regarding the motives of redactors, editors, and Canon committees. LOL Sorry but you have never made any argument related to those issues.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Most of the Alexandrian Church Fathers EVENTUALLY were denounces as heretics over something very similar to reincarnation this issue. (a bunch of related issues to your 2 options in the plausibility question) Clement of Alexandria was about the only was that avoided (by the skin of some teeth?) the official stigma. See: Didymus the Blind - Wikipedia It is a monumental loss indeed that we lost so many works from Origin and Didymus (not to mention Clement of Alexandria), and it seems to be tied to this 2nd Council of Constantinople anathema load they got condemned with. Had their works been preserved, then we would surely have a much more complete Gospel of the Hebrews. (The Egyptian one that dates from 100-120 or I think earlier) Though we should never forget that Jerome considered all 3 Gospel of the Hebrews (that scholars now divide up in a Gospel of The Ebionites, Gospel of the Hebrews, and Gospel of the Nazarenes) to be a single Gospel of the Hebrews book and it was Matthew.
quote: The Catholic church wouldn't let Jerome use the authentic Gospel of Matthew in the Vulgate translation. (very vegetarian "Gospel" - singular! - and it could have Jesus sort of reincarnated or something at Baptism) And a really amazing thing is that Catholics and Protestants make a big deal about how Papias is now dated at about 110 A.D., and the excitement is over Irenaeus saying he knew John the Apostle (as they say about Polycarp a supposed Disciple of Apostle John) Google searches: papias eyewitness papias eyewitness john Did Papias Know the Apostle John? - Canon Fodder But Papias also knew a "Hebrew Gospel" that had the oldest type of story that was later known as Pericope Adulterae (much later put into the John Gospel: John 7:53-8:11 in KJV). Jesus and the woman taken in adultery - Wikipedia Papias and Didymus are sources (what little we have of them anyway). I suppose the biggest thing about the Papias re-dating is that it could very well place the Gospel of the Hebrews in the first century! You won't hear a peep from fundamentalists on that one! (They are more likely to try to use the Papias reference to prove that the Gospel of John was what was referred to when he mentioned the sinful woman/Jesus issue. Though the impossibility of John chapter 3 making any sense in any language other than Greek would prevent too many from even going there, thus it will, again, simply be ignored.) EDIT: see my Gospel of the Hebrews paste several posts above for the adultery periscope issues (it isn't one of the extant quotes, but is a reference chain of piece by piece evidence) Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: A related topic to the reincarnation ( or at least the pre existence of the soul issue) is the difference between the eastern and western "church" on the Gospel of Matthew. The Hebrew Gospel of Matthew of Jerome seemed to support the idea that the Holy Spirit (and thus Jesus?) was incarnated into humans before. (the idea of reincarnation for all humans seems to have been a Jewish Christian view). But were certain things added to the Hebrew Gospel as is conventionally said?
quote: Jerome had to submit to the Pope, despite his own personal views, on numerous Bible book (versions) selection issues. SEE "Against Rufinius" by Jerome. BingAgainst Rufinius jerome canon The Papias evidence shows that there were SUBTRACTIONS from the Hebrew Gospel (and it should be seen as a first century Gospel. The story that later made it into the Gospel of John was already in the Hebrew Gospel (Matthew?). There were differences.
quote: Then the same Gospel (according to Jerome) did have certain stories out (like the virgin birth?)
quote: Was there an original without the Virgin Birth but with pre existence of the soul (which came to get Alexandrian Chruch Fathers labeled as heretics)?
quote: also said
quote: Why were certain views seen as threatening? Reincarnation or (a related heresy) pre existence of the soul? Do you have any ideas why there would be hatred directed at those who hold to the pre existence of the soul? I do know that history has taught us that those who hold to the pre existence of the soul seem to have religious views that predispose them to vegetarianism. (though a massive amount of atheists hate to see suffering for sure) There is a clear difference, when compared to today's Christians, in the respect for life and suffering in Early Christianity. We know that the Roman Catholic side won the Empire, and decided what was "true Christianity". Is it the fact that the ability to kill (for whatever reason) is severely hamstrung if one holds reincarnation or preexistence views? The Bhagavad Gita can perhaps be seen as reflecting that concern (Ahisma seemed to be winning the day and the old religion of India was changing and Dharma needed to be invoked and described as including THE REQUIRMENT TO "FIGHT!" WARS) The Pythagoreans did fight wars, though they wouldn't cut through bean fields (because beans reproduce in a way that seems parallel to a sperm fertilization relationship). They fought to defend their society's ability to exist in an intolerant world. The threat of a pacifism among people might be a concern. The ability to eat meat (something rich Catholics valued highly) is a major concern. You can't beat a trusting pet pig over the head with a hammer if you have a Christian population that opposes it (that majority population doesn't seem to have ever quite existed in the Roman Empire, though we don't really know what the majority was from 325 to 380 AD). The hatred the Roman Government "Church" had for various peoples ( Jewish Christians and related original Christian communities, Hindus, Pythagoreans, etc.) would have been compounded by all sorts of power factors. We know that the original Gospel of Matthew has been lost forever, and it must have been due to threatening concepts. (assuming there was a Hebrew/Aramaic original, it must have been lost forever. Papias indicated a 1st century Hebrew Gospel that had the story with a sinful woman in it.) Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2423 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I never was sure if Origen actually believed in reincarnation. If Ehrman is correct, then this would be impressive. It might mean a massive chunk of European Christians held Jewish Christian beliefs in the 3rd century.
Just a moment... The bulk of his article is behind a paywall. But he said this:
quote: I need to subscribe to read the rest of the article. His "comments" (responding to reader questions) on Elijah and John the Baptist seemed to indicate some divergent views on that issue. Ehrman said this in the comments:
quote: Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Ehrman is a heretic and so was Origen.
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