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Author | Topic: Religious Special Pleading | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Ringo writes: Run! Run like the wind! I'm not going anywhere chuck, but I'm also not prepared to repeat the same arguments more than a dozen or so times. The points have been made; they stand on their merits. The thread is about religious special pleading - male circumcision is merely one example of it. I rather hope we can move on.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
The trial of a man accused of female genital mutiltion ended with acquittal yesterday. This despite the fact that the girl had been cut.
There's been only one other prosecution for FGM and that also failed. UK solicitor cleared of forcing daughter to undergo FGM | Female genital mutilation (FGM) | The Guardian A couple of years ago the NHS started collecting statistics on FGM victims as they entered the service for other medical conditions - maternity being the big one. So far they've reported 14,500 cases. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: Nope. Your "points" fly in the face of medical practice and religious freedom. Well you got half of that right, but no matter. You seem to think that arguments are won by endlessly repeating assertions; I don't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: It isn't about winning or losing. Ha!
If somebody comes into the middle of the thread and reads your foolishness, they might be misled if it isn't challenged. I'm positive that is not your motivation, but whatever.....as the kids say. Meanwhile, back in the world of facts and sanity:
Circumcision of children for "non-medical reasons" is banned in Denmark and Sweden. Boys may consent to the procedure from the age of 12: Denmark, Sweden Ban Non-Medical Circumcision of Boys In 2012, it was ruled that religious circumcision is illegal in Germany:German circumcision ban: Is it a parent's right to choose? "Cosmetic" circumcision is banned in public hospitals in Australia, although permitted in private ones. In 2013 the Council of Europe adopted a resolution questioning the practice of circumcising young boys and several EU member states are debating bans on religious circumcision. In the UK, circumcision remains legal but it is rare outside the Jewish and Muslim communities. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Rrhain writes: Circumcision seems to have carved out (ahem) for itself an exception...and this largely seems to continue today because being uncool to Jews is a big problem. Hence special pleading.
If it was just Muslims - I'm sure the practice would have been banned in the US alongside its female counterpart. In the UK similar reluctance was shown for fgm because of a fear of offending cultural practice. We can at least now see the start of an intolerance to cultural and religous harm.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Rrhain writes: Are you sure? Pretty much, yes.
So while there may be a reticence to prosecute or detect the practice there are 1) Actual cultural sensitivity issues surrounding the law2) Actual difficulties detecting the issue in children and securing prosecution when all parties are cooperating with one another against the prosecution. (And as the case you highlighted earlier demonstrates, even when this isn't the case, a successful conviction is not certain as proving criminal responsibility is still difficult in a he said-she said case). There was and still are practical difficulties in prosecuting this offence but over and above this there has been a general reluctance to interfere in sensitive areas of religion and culture. The recent sexual abuse by Pakistani Muslims men on vulnerable white girls in the North of England had the same problem and this has been admitted by the services involved - police and social services.
quote: There were many variables at work here but significant ones involved race/culture/religion causing a reluctance to see the crimes for what they were.
quote: Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal - Wikipedia On fgm, similar things were happening. This is part of the Parliamentary Select Committee Enquiry summary
quote: Just a moment... Behind the excuses there's a similar reluctance based on offending a minority, in a similar way to not interfering with male circumcision. However, fgm being an obvious violent and life changing assault on children is beginning ti build some momentum and we'll eventually see some successful prosecutions.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Modulous writes: The 'are you sure' was about banning the practice - which was done in the 80s and I'm not aware that there was any problem banning the practice due to cultural sensitivity issues per se. You may be right, the cultural sensitivity thing - politically correct stuff - came later. Implementing the law seemed to become rather harder as time moved on.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: we should not infringe on individual rights in general because of the possibility of harm in a few cases. Individuals do not have a general right to harm anybody. Cutting the skin off the penis is a harm in ALL cases. In some cases the harm causes death.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Ringo writes: Clearly not. quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Ringo writes: You could not have picked a worse example. Haven't you heard that Jews practice circumcision? The quote is about what you do to them, not what they choose for themselves. It's quite a talent you have, pretending to misunderstand stuff then twisting it around. It's extremely irritating and totally pointless. Anyway, the play is about someone demanding that which is lawful but unreasonable and it's the Jew wanting to do the harm - carving off his pound of flesh. But no matter. The point of the quote - as I'm sure you know - was that which was in bold; if you prick us do we not bleed. You said that children are not harmed by circumcision. It was an utterly stupid statement - they are pricked and they bleed. And they scream. That is harm by any definition at all.
quote: My bold. Infant Responses to CircumcisionJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jehovah's Witnesses are in the news here again for various kinds of child sexual abuse within their community. The Guardian has over a hundred cases and more are being uncovered. In yet another form of religious special pleading JWs have their own internal 'legal' system of dealing with criminality in their community, but their 'court' requires two phyical witnesses to a crime, so guess what, child abuse, domestic violence and rape allegations virtually never succeed and are raely made. This stupidity and complacence is apparently scriptural.
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: So you don't see the irony? Shylock was a Jew. He was clearly not speaking against circumcision.You're doing the same thing as the creationists who quote Darwin to disprove evolution. Just in case you think otherwise, I *have* noticed that you are attempting to avoid responding to the only point being made, which is that cutting off the foreskin of a baby causes severe pain and bleeding and occasionally death. ie physical harm.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: Been there, done that. The issue here is not whether circumcision can occasionally have bad effects. The issue is who decides. You seem to be developing Faith's convenient memory. I am responding to your denial that circumcision causes harm.
Tangle writes: Cutting the skin off the penis is a harm in ALL cases. Ringo respondsClearly not. I assume that having 'been there and done that' you no longer deny that bleeding, pain and death is harm?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: And I'm saying that the issue is who decides what is harm. No, harm - particularly physical harm - is objective not subjective. If you prick them they bleed. Attempting to pass harm off as dependant on who does it is simply special pleading. Would we allow this practice if it didn't exist is a good test
Harm" is not something that is standing out in the middle of a field by itself. "Good effects" and "bad effects" are a spectrum. You can't just say that something "is" bad to justify banning it. You have to weigh the bad against the good. Some things are really simple. Cutting the foreskin off a baby (obviously without its consent) for no medical, purpose causing pain, suffering and occasional death is the very definition of harm. Quite apart from that, there is no 'good'.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ringo writes: Obviously false. Oh crap, I thought we'd made progress. (Not really.)
Are tattoos harmful? Are piercings harmful? Etc Yes if done without consent. But we've done this, I'm not going round this more than a dozen times.
There are as many opinions about "harm" as there are people. No there aren't. Harm is a well defined legal concept, moreover everyone knows exactly what it means; particularly when they're harmed. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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