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Author Topic:   Is a Literal Reading of the Bible a Relatively New Gimmick?
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 4 of 43 (83824)
02-06-2004 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
02-06-2004 5:59 AM


This emphasis upon a literal reading of the scriptures, which had earlier been stressed in Judaism over against a Christocentric reading of the Old Testament, ...
Brian, I'd be interested in seeing this substantiated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 02-06-2004 5:59 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 02-06-2004 7:55 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 6 of 43 (84552)
02-08-2004 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Brian
02-06-2004 7:55 AM


Brian,
Forgive me for not responding sooner. I just returned from spending the weekend with a gaggle of grandkids.
What I am arguing is that the Christian Fathers had to allegorise the Old Testament because ...
My question was not about what you were arguing, but about assertions made in the course of that argument. You wrote:
quote:
This emphasis upon a literal reading of the scriptures, which had earlier been stressed in Judaism over against a Christocentric reading of the Old Testament, ...
Again, I would like to see that characterization/generalization of Judaism substantiated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Brian, posted 02-06-2004 7:55 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Brian, posted 02-09-2004 9:27 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 8 of 43 (84822)
02-09-2004 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Brian
02-09-2004 9:27 AM


Good evening, Brian. You write:
Re the unsubstantiated/generalisation in my post, the quote was from Kummel’s book and I had posted it in response to WT presentation of Luther as having an allegorical approach to the Bible.
Am I incorrect in believing that the sentence in question was yours and not Kummel's? Specifically, you appear to claim:
  • This emphasis upon a literal reading of the scriptures, which had earlier been stressed in Judaism ...
Can you support your characterization of Judaism.
I hate to be a nudge, but it would really help if you'd take a moment to answer the questions asked. Thanks.

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 Message 7 by Brian, posted 02-09-2004 9:27 AM Brian has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 12 of 43 (84956)
02-10-2004 7:53 AM


Brian,
Perhaps my problem is one of interpreting your posts. Please consider editing/reformating Message 3 to help clarify what are your words, what statements or paragraphs are direct quotes, and what statements or paragraphs constitute your paraphrase of Kummel or others.
Parenthetically, references such "(Kummel, pp 20-23)" may be more helpful if accompanied by a title.
[This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 02-10-2004]

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 Message 17 by Brian, posted 02-10-2004 3:06 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 25 of 43 (85233)
02-10-2004 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Brian
02-10-2004 9:06 AM


Thanks, Brian.
Do you have any idea what our friend Kummel was talking about? Specifically, to what period of Judaism might he be referring? Certainly not the Tannaitic. It occurs to me that the sentence "had earlier been stressed in Judaism over against a Christocentric reading of the Old Testament" might easily refer to no more that an understandable Judaic disdain for those who would twist the Torah into Christian prophecy. It may have little or nothing to do with the type of literalism that we associate with fundamentalism. Furthermore, it seems that Kummel's Judaism is far more monolithic that one would think reasonable.
In any event, I look forward to hearing Kummel's arguments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 02-10-2004 9:06 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 02-11-2004 5:13 PM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 27 of 43 (85331)
02-11-2004 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
02-11-2004 12:19 AM


Re: Testing the theory of scriptural agreement
Phatboy writes:
Context: Who wrote Hebrews? Some have assigned it to Clemens of Rome; other to Luke; and many to Barnabas, thinking that the style and manner of expression is very agreeable to the zealous, authoritative, affectionate temper that Barnabas appears to be of, in the account we have of him in the acts of the Apostles; and one ancient father quotes an expression out of this epistle as the words of Barnabas. But it is generally assigned to the apostle Paul; and some later copies and translations have put Paul's name in the title.I got this from gleaning basic commentaries.
Unfortunately, you copied it from a single commentary without attribution, leaving the posted commentary unclear as to authorship in a manner suggestive of plagiarism.
quote:
As to the divine amanuensis or penman of this epistle, we are not so certain; it does not bear the name of any in the front of it, as the rest of the epistles do, and there has been some dispute among the learned to whom they should ascribe it. Some have assigned it to Clemens of Rome; other to Luke; and many to Barnabas, thinking that the style and manner of expression is very agreeable to the zealous, authoritative, affectionate temper that Barnabas appears to be of, in the account we have of him in the acts of the Apostles; and one ancient father quotes an expression out of this epistle as the words of Barnabas. But it is generally assigned to the apostle Paul; and some later copies and translations have put Paul's name in the title.
- see AN EXPOSITION - Commentary on the Whole Bible (1721), by Matthew Henry
For more on the good Rev. Henry, see the New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religios Knowledge, which notes that the work, while "long celebrated as the best of English commentaries for devotional purposes", "has no critical value".
For those interested in somewhat more recent commentary, permit me to suggest Kirby's Early Christian Writings.
[This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 02-11-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 02-11-2004 12:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 02-11-2004 8:17 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 31 of 43 (85574)
02-11-2004 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Brian
02-11-2004 5:13 PM


Re: Kummel
I will have a look at some of Hayes' books on Friday and get back to you unless you can make sense of the above.
Not I.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 02-11-2004 5:13 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Brian, posted 02-15-2004 1:49 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 32 of 43 (85583)
02-11-2004 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
02-11-2004 8:17 AM


Re: Testing the theory of scriptural agreement
Consequent, the point that I am making is that ...
My difficulty was not in understanding the point, but in respecting its author.
Your source that you recommend as a more recent commentary states this bit of "wisdom"(?) ...
Supplementing plagiarism with inane sarcasm is hardly an improvement.
For the sake of my test, ...
Good grief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 02-11-2004 8:17 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 02-11-2004 11:14 PM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 37 of 43 (86763)
02-16-2004 7:11 PM


No, Brian, I have not read the book. How does it justify the generalization in question?

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Brian, posted 02-17-2004 5:52 AM ConsequentAtheist has replied

  
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 6267 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 41 of 43 (88329)
02-24-2004 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Brian
02-17-2004 5:52 AM


I will have a look at it on Wednesday and let you know.
Brian?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Brian, posted 02-17-2004 5:52 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 02-25-2004 9:48 AM ConsequentAtheist has not replied

  
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