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Author Topic:   Is a Literal Reading of the Bible a Relatively New Gimmick?
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 2 of 43 (83752)
02-05-2004 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
02-04-2004 3:15 PM


Just after the death of the Apostles gnosticism conquered the Church.
Then, in response to this tangentle heresy God would raise up a man to re-discover the teachings of the Apostles. In these teachings, God proclaims that the right division of His word can only be interpreted by a person that is called by Him to do so.
This means the true message contained in scripture can only be brought to understanding by a person chosen by God.
People with this calling : Augustine, Martin Luther, John Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, G. Campbell Morgan, and of course Dr. Scott, to name a few amongst a few.
What I am saying is what Ephesians says. That only gift ministers raised up by God can effectively interpret written scripture. This is the way God has chosen to speak and He gives us the choice in deciding who speaks for Him.
A true mouthpiece from God always counter-balances the havoc created by literalists and their opposites.
The only hitch involved is the spiritual discernment it takes to decide who actually speaks for God. This means individuals must search and pray God that He leads them to a gift minister.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 02-04-2004 3:15 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 02-06-2004 5:59 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 10 of 43 (84847)
02-09-2004 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
02-06-2004 5:59 AM


Brian :
I am not aware of anything said pertaining to Luther except my inclusion of him into that list of gift ministers. Although, in this reply I will make known where I stand about him.
Where is your definiton of "literalism" except in the example of Origen and his scriptural interpretations ?
If the example of Origen is your definition then the meaning is quite clear.
Origen had an intense desire for young girls which caused him to take what Jesus said about offending body parts literally. He castrated himself believing this would solve his problem. Of course, the only thing this accomplished was to disable his ability to perform, thus leaving him with the same desires but no avenue of release.
Jesus meant what He said about removing offending body parts that will take the whole body to hell. But faced with the horror of performing surgery on oneself, Jesus was intending to make one see the need for the power of the gospel as the only other alternative to plucking out your eye, castration, etc. etc.
As you know, Luther is a giant - the Father of the Reformation. I urge caution IF you intend to lump him with a nut case like Origen.
Personally, I equate literalists to be the worst element of fundementalism, and fundementalism is the worst element in any given good. Fundementalism is also generic representation of the established religious community in any era. It was the Pharisees in Christ's time, the religious right of our time, and the Catholic Church of Luther's time.
Compared to the handling of God's written word by the Roman Catholic Church, Luther was indeed a literalist. God used Luther to PROTEST the voiding of His word by the status quo. Luther simply rediscovered that which was already there and he demanded that the clerical stranglehold upon the "Holy Literary" be released by the Church.
"Origenic literalists" love the book of James. Luther referred to James as an epistle "made of straw....not one word of gospel in it"
Evangelion and charisma (grace) do not appear in the epistle of James.
I conclude Luther is not a literalist in the sense I believe you are intending.
The reportive meaning of "literalist" today has inescapable connection to something Luther clearly was not.
Your topic title associating literalism to gimmick is an insult - I love it. If anything you are too soft. I also think it would benefit understanding if you were to simply stipulate a specific defintion to literalism.
I agree with your observation that literal reading of the Bible has reached new heights in the 20th and 21st centuries. Please expose these heights and pillage their motives.
Then you comment about persons who do their best to embrace Jesus but cannot believe flood stories, 1000 year life spans, etc. etc.
I couldn't agree more with the spirit and intent of your point here.
N.T. personages only believed that God was in Christ. Trinitarian gobbilygook emerged 400 years later.
Brian, as to the posted forth-coming paper excerpts, I find what you write extremely objective and exciting. If rank and file christianity knew half of what you know we would change the world in ten years.
To connect the Reformation to the Renaissance is absolutely accurate as revisionist scholars continually seek to disengage the two.
Let me end by asking you to further clarify your position concerning Luther as is related to the message of your topic. And please respond to my plea for literalism meaning and my placement of fundementalists as literalists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 02-06-2004 5:59 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by truthlover, posted 02-10-2004 9:52 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 11 of 43 (84852)
02-09-2004 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Phat
02-09-2004 8:00 PM


Phatboy :
I just want to tell you that the last paragraph in this post of yours is really terrific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Phat, posted 02-09-2004 8:00 PM Phat has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 30 of 43 (85515)
02-11-2004 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by truthlover
02-10-2004 9:52 AM


TL :
You are right. I was wrong to label a Church Father like Origen a "nut case ". I formally withdraw the characterization as I am in complete agreement with you as to this persons greatness.
I should of separated the fanatical act of self-mutilation out from the man and his life and what he accomplished.
I made a mistake and now I have corrected it - thank you.
Yet, you too have made some mistakes in this post of yours.
Never did I say or imply that Origen had any unusual desires.
Never did I say Origen was " tormented the rest of his life " .
I offered an opinion concerning the effects of castration. It is assumed the procedure removes desire. Most of time it does not. Desires remain, the ability to perform does not. You missed the entire point though. Christ's statement about offending body parts was made in the context of the N.T./gospel, which Origen didn't seem to grasp as is the case of most literalists.
Then you make more accurate comments concerning the greatness of Origen - I agree.
Then, in true eye for eye payback mentality you use my mistake as a pretext to launch an attack on even a greater man than Origen - Martin Luther. You didn't really care about Origen or your post would of ended there. The true target and intent of the post was to vomit all over Luther.
What offense could anyone take when Luther uses profanity against the devil ? You are more offended over a few street terms than you are with an evil personage like the Devil. Do you feel " even " now that you called Luther a..... " nutball" ? The O.T. says Nehemiah, under the approval of God cursed people to their face and yanked out their beards. Luther cursed out the devil - so what !
Then the pretext continues as you get to the real agenda of your post.
You brand Luther an anti-semite.
You're too dumb to realize that by doing this you have ruined your own objective reputation concerning Luther/Protestantism. No objective person reading this smear from you now cannot ever trust anything you argue about Luther or Protestantism. You played the race card at the drop of a hat.
Honest and inteligent people know the race card is a never ending dead end. This is equivalent to right-wing fundies hatefully accusing Jewry of killing Jesus.
Never once did I in hundreds of pages of evolution debate ever mention the racial bigotry of Charles Darwin. IF I were to of done this then my opponents would rightfully conclude that I really reject Darwinism for reasons other than science/philosophy. Darwin's views toward Africans is completely irrelevant to his scientific theories/discoveries.
In reality you hate Protestants and all that we are. The race card reveals hate. You want to ruin the image of one of the greatest persons of all time and branding them anti-semite is always first on the list of your kind - the truth be damned. I could care less what worthless website you cite as a source. I could crash the server of any website by downloading contrary evidence about Luther. Its a short-sighted act to initiate the never ending dead end of the race card.
" truthlover "......as if your love of the truth exceeds everyone elses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by truthlover, posted 02-10-2004 9:52 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by AdminBrian, posted 02-12-2004 3:37 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 40 by truthlover, posted 02-20-2004 9:45 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3077 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 35 of 43 (85944)
02-12-2004 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by AdminBrian
02-12-2004 3:37 AM


For what it is worth - I apologize for breaking the rules. I should of phrased my criticism in the third person - sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by AdminBrian, posted 02-12-2004 3:37 AM AdminBrian has not replied

  
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